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Author Topic: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?  (Read 23872 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2007, 01:04:43 PM »
Hi,

Great work! All I can say is to repeat: increase still the mass of your flywheel! How much?  At least 5 to 10 times as you have now. I mean mass: this can be a heavier/thicker wheel of similar diameter or a much larger diameter but not so thick wheel etc.  Try to remember children's small play cars (of kinda matchbox size) with built-in flywheel: the mass of this flywheel was much bigger than the wheel on which the toycar rolled.

You are surely getting closer.

Gyula

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2007, 01:04:43 PM »

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2007, 10:08:19 PM »
Not running (yet?), but I have been fooling around with the configuration, and playing with the interaction between the magnets, mostly without the push rod installed so I can get a feel for how the magnets interact.

I wish there was a way to see the fields and how they interact in real time. I can feel with my hands, but you can only feel so much.

The main thing I have learned so far, is that my #1 assumption is wrong.

I was assuming that the only forces involved were repulsion forces. The patent only talks about repulsion forces, and a nuetral spot, so I assumed that this is all that should come into play. But by testing I can tell that attraction forces certainly come into play, and in fact they may be the dominant forces.

My understanding of how this device works (at least my embodiment of it) has increased, but my confidence in getting it to work has decreased. My mental model now of what is happening as it cycles tells me it will not work.

Still going to play with it though and learn what I can.




Offline gyulasun

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2007, 12:16:32 PM »
Hi,  But if you do not use the push rod the setup is not like the basic idea?  Perhaps the push rod is one way of keeping the distances correct with respect to attract forces.

May I turn your attention to this link:
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Inventors/Bearden/SymmetricalPermanentMagnetMotor/index.html

I do not mean you test his setup (his magnetic pole arrangement is different and getting the shape at the ends of the magnets is very difficult) but to think about using covering shield at one side of your magnets. As a shield any magnetizable thin piece of metal cut to size would do.

But FIRST  I think still to increase the mass of your flywheel i.e. make it much heavier than it is now!

Gyula

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2007, 12:16:32 PM »
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Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2007, 03:02:04 PM »
Hey Gyulasun,

I'm not trying to get it to work without the push rod, I'm just feeling how the magnets interact when they are at different angles and distances from each other. I want to feel the repulsion at the right time that should be driving this. I'm using what I feel and see to guide me in the right crank angle and the right interaction distance between the magnets

Thanks for the article. Instead of cutting the magnets and shielding I have also thought about trying to use Halbach arrays to make this unbalanced, but then I am going beyond the patent idea, and I don't have enough magnets to play with this.

I hesitate to go even heavier with the flywheel because then I feel that all I am seeing is a better and better flywheel effect. I feel that I have to see the basic driving force manifest itself first.


Offline gyulasun

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2007, 04:27:28 PM »

I hesitate to go even heavier with the flywheel because then I feel that all I am seeing is a better and better flywheel effect. I feel that I have to see the basic driving force manifest itself first.


Hi,  I fully agree with your wish of experimenting and explore the basic driving force.  It should be the difference between the approch and leaving repel forces, right?  BUT you have just written: But by testing I can tell that attraction forces certainly come into play, and in fact they may be the dominant forces.   If so, can make use of this?
Do you think new basic assumptions are needed for another working principle?

Gyula

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2007, 04:27:28 PM »
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Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2007, 05:06:36 PM »
Hi,  I fully agree with your wish of experimenting and explore the basic driving force.  It should be the difference between the approch and leaving repel forces, right?

That was my understanding from just reading the patent, as that is all they talk about.  

Quote
BUT you have just written: But by testing I can tell that attraction forces certainly come into play, and in fact they may be the dominant forces.   If so, can make use of this?

Right now my plan is to stay focused on the repel forces as the driving force.

Quote
Do you think new basic assumptions are needed for another working principle?

I hope not, at least yet.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2007, 06:29:00 AM »
OK,. guys this idea is a good one. I actually created something similar to this years ago, but i never fathomed how to attach a "transmission" to it to make it move at the right time.

Notice the patent says One or more,. and At least One.


Heres the basic device i was playing with back in college::
Take a wheel with several same-facing magnets placed around its outer rim. Not just one.

Now attach a secondary magnet to a lever, so you can push it back and forth with your finger.
now when you put it next to the wheel so that when it moves forward the wheel wants to spin.
and when you pull it away (at the right time) it keeps spinning a few times form this one push.
once you get the timing right you can sit there and push., push, push ,push and it gets spinning
really really fast.

The problem i had was with the timing, as the wheel increased with speed almost exponentially (at least thats how it seemed to me at the time) you had to adjust the timing of your pushes to keep it going right. My solution for this manually operated version was to place it just far enough i could feel a slight tug when the sticky point passed then i knew when to "push". 

i wondered how to attach it to something that knew when each rotation.. this makes perfect sense.
a Flywheel, spinning at the same rate (or proportionally geared) with a notch or guide-rail to move the magnet away when the "sticky spot" is approaching, then the centrifugal force built up from the previous spin helps to "push" again at just the right time.

dont read too much into the technical writing, to be honest im suprised they issued him a patent without disguising is more than this. They're not supposed to allow patents on  this type of device LOL!! Good for him!

Multiple magnets on the wheel!!!  i may make one of these myself, ive learned a lot since college i could probably make one much better than the one i had before, which worked well enough to impress myself at the time.

as far as the "transmission", just have a notched wheel spinning with the magnetic wheel, and make the drive magnet move away from the sticky spot. its an arch because its a wheel, so there is almost no resistance to pulling the magnet away, the flywheel is to provide pushing force to drive it some more.

it works like an old pedal-operated sewing machine if that helps.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2007, 06:29:00 AM »
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Offline ryanjrx7

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2007, 06:44:35 PM »
You know what I just thought?  Try putting some square piece of steel or magnetic material on the base under the flywheel axle.  I always picture lines of force "reaching"  If theres a piece of steel, it might keep the lines of force reaching down instead of up and repelling the magnet attached to the flywheel axle.  It may also slow dow the axle to-but you seem to be an ace with the hot glue gun, so it'd be a quick thing to try involving no modification to anything else.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2007, 07:52:06 PM »
Yes, ryanjrx7,  it is a good idea!   

Also, I would suggest changing one or both of the strong Neo magnets to  ceramic magnets  i.e. which are not so strong: this way you do not have to increase the mass of the flywheel.

Gyula

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2007, 07:52:06 PM »
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Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2007, 03:43:24 PM »
Finally sat down and figured out how to use FEMM, so I could get a visual sense of the forces involved, and hopefully to do simulations instead of building.

I have a basic question about the visualizations.

How can you see repulsion? What are the visual clues that show repulsion?

I think I can see attraction, when flux lines mark a path from one magnet to another, in other words the lines actually pass through both magnets.

But what does repulsion look like? Lines from each magnet that pass parallel to each other with vector forces in the same direction?

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2007, 12:36:26 AM »
im not sure what you actually "see" with FEMM, but "repulsion" should be seen as a compression of the flux lines, where they lose symetry and bend inwards towards both magnets.

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2007, 12:36:26 AM »
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Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2007, 05:29:15 AM »
I worked through some more of FEMM, and I have put together a simulation that shows the rotating and sliding magnets interacting.

Anyone know an easy way to turn a bunch of BMP files into an animated GIF? or even better a movie file?

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2007, 09:16:25 AM »
G'day Ken and all.

Write to me at hans@keelytech.com and I will send you a programme that will do it for you. You can take a series of bitmaps and turn them into an animated gif. A bit of learning but nothing special. Alternatively send me the bitmaps and I will do it for you.

Hans von Lieven

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2007, 02:14:35 AM »
Converted some bmps to gifs.

Here are some images from the simulation. I tried to match the geometry and proportions of the patent. (My build is slighty different)

The magnets in the model are Neo 40's

The sliding magnet is 1/8" x 1/2".
The rotating magnet is 1/8" x 1".

The stroke length of the sliding magnet is 2".

The rotating magnet is offset 3/16" from the center of rotation by the square attached to it's bottom, the center of the square is the center of rotation.

The rotating magnet is also offset 10 degrees from the invisible crank that links the rotating magnet to the sliding magnet. 10 degrees was suggested as a value by the patent. This you can see in the images below. In the first image below the sliding magnet is at it's lowest point, and the rotating magnet is 10 degrees off the 0 degree point immediately below the sliding magnet.

The view is side-on of the apparatus.

I am uploading (I hope) the views discussed in the patent.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 09:44:07 PM by ken_nyus »

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2007, 09:39:57 PM »
Anyone know how I would go about creating a torque graph from this simulation?

It would be great if I could create a tourque graph of the torque applied to the center of rotation as the magnet rotates.

If I could understand how to come to a solution of the torque for a given position, in a script I could gather this information as the script moves the members of the model through a full cycle.

Then I could decide if the device should theoretically work or not, for a given configuration.


 

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