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Author Topic: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?  (Read 23871 times)

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 09:26:54 PM »
Found a few places that sell linear slides, I think I understand how I could use them now, but they are expensive, starting around $100US!!!

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 09:26:54 PM »

Offline ryanjrx7

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2007, 08:06:20 PM »
Not to suggest taking apart your kitchen, but your drawers slide on a track in a linear fashion.  If you're using big magnets, consider getting the drawer sliders for a mechanic's tool box.  Those can handle a pretty good load.  An old TV cart would also usually have some form of sliding tray.  Good luck

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 03:06:36 AM »
G'day all,

Has anyone tried to build this??

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 03:06:36 AM »
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Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2007, 05:42:38 PM »
Hey Hans,

I am trying to build this. Haven't done much in the last week or so, I hope to do more work next week.

I am intrigued by this design because it seems so simple, and from my reading of the patent, I understand how it should work.

I have been hoping someone with a more critical eye than mine would give some specific theory why it would not work, but in the mean time, I am moving slowly ahead with my crude build of this device.

Offline NerzhDishual

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2007, 06:56:53 PM »


@ken_nyus

IMHO, this device should work if properly built and 'tuned'.
You just need some luck to have it running. 
That's all the harm I wish you !

BTW: could you post some pictureS?

Best

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2007, 06:56:53 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 10:53:44 PM »
G'day all,

I have my doubts as to this thing. It looks like another lawyer's scam to tie up technology. The word autogenic means 'self generating, to produce from within'. It is a word that is being used in psychology and the self help industry.

The word was obviously used to fool patent examiners as the word perpetual motion is not allowed and this means just about the same thing.

The use of a piston like arrangement to re-guage the magnet is by no means new or original. The rest just describes a flywheel. This thing will run for a while after the flywheel has been set into motion by some outside force as the energy stored in the flywheel runs down, though I suspect the flywheel would run longer if the magnets were removed.

Anyone who has ever played with magnets knows that if you separate two magnets that are stuck to each other the easiest way is to slide them apart sideways. The hardest way is to pull them apart in the opposite direction to the natural attraction. In this device the re-guaging of the magnetic forces is attempted in the most unfavourable way possible.

My feeling is the thing will not work

Hans von Lieven

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 11:49:52 PM »
Hi Hans,

The principle of the device as I understand it is all based on repulsion. Half the cycle is N-N, the other half S-S repulsion.

One of the diagrams is mislabeled, and there also seem to be some mistakes in the text, but they don't talk about any attraction being used, only repulsion.

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 11:49:52 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2007, 01:01:40 AM »
G'day Ken and all,

You still need to get around the "sticky point", in other words there is a need to re-guage.

I cannot see how you can do it with this arrangement. It would be nice if one could, I admit, but this way?

I have a massive file of permanent magnet motor patents, none of which work. Please, someone tell me why this one does.

Hans von Lieven

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2007, 03:01:34 AM »
I'm not sure there is a classic sticky point in this design, it is more like a sticky-half.

Half of the cycle is working to push the flywheel (n-n repulsion), and the other half of the cycle is working against the flywheel (s-s repulsion).

But in the first half of the cycle the magnets are always a little closer together than in the corresponding points of the second half of the cycle, creating an imbalance of force in favor of the rotation, that's the theory anyway.

This excess force is stored in the flywheel, and used to get through the sticky-half.

If magnetic force is related to the square of the distance, a small difference in distance can mean a large difference in force?


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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2007, 03:01:34 AM »
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Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2007, 08:51:16 PM »
Ok, got a decent ball bearing linear slide for cheap on eBay, and I put the basic rig together. Worked out a push rod mechanism, with some heavy 1/4" rod ends I had. Overall sloppy and ugly, with lots of hot glue holding things together.

No luck on getting even a single rotation on it's own. The setup is heavy, especially the push rod mechanism. Also I am not sure how to go about balancing the mechanism in a practical way once all of the parts are connected together.

If anyone is interested I would like to try and go through some design criteria for this device, things that should be true for this to work.

Basic assumptions of the working principles of this device:

1. All forces are repulsion forces.
2. For one half of the cycle, N-N repulsion helps to push the flywheel. In the other half of the cycle S-S repulsion fights back against the flywheel.
3. The physical arrangement of the device causes the magnets to always be closer together for the N-N half of the cycle, compared to the corresponding points of the S-S half of the cycle.
3. Because of this difference in distance, the N-N half of the cycle should be producing more force than the S-S half of the cycle.
4. This "excess" force is stored in the flywheel, and used to push past the S-S half of the cycle, to start the cycle again.

Now what design criteria must be true for this to work? Here is what I think needs to be true:

1. The flywheel must be able to store more force than the total force required to cycle the device. I think the total force capacity(?) of the flywheel should be much larger than the forces provided by the magnet interaction. Here I think my flywheel is too small, a 2 1/4" brass flywheel for a small steam engine.

2. The difference in force between the two halves of the cycle should be maximized. In this device the way to do this is to make the stroke of the linear part longer. I have a slide that can move 1.5 inches.  Leaving a 1/4" on each end to avoid hitting the stops, that leaves about 1" of usable travel.

3. The difference in force between the two halves of the cycle must be enough to overcome the inherent friction/inertia of the device. My device so far is too heavy. I can adjust the magnets as close as possible to work in the range of greatest force, but then it seems like the flywheel cannot store it all.

My thoughts and progress so far.

Having fun working and thinking about this, hope to make some improvements in the future.



I am using N40 1 x 1 x 1/8" magnets.

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2007, 10:12:42 PM »
Here is a video of this crude version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTsj7zisM4

Please ignore the gobs of hot glue, the crooked flywheel, the pennies and blue tac, etc...




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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2007, 10:12:42 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2007, 10:40:46 PM »
Hi Ken_nyus,

Very good!  All I can say is to increase significantly the mass of your flywheel.  I think that what you have to reach is a state when  -without any one of the magnets so that no interaction between them could occur-- you give a few pushes to the flywheel by hand to make it rotate, it should rotate for a few minutes at least and you must feel a good torque at the rotating shaft then which should be hard to slow down by a 'finger' break.  This 'good' torque is what will feel the S-S repel force as working against it.

Keep up good work.

Gyula

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2007, 11:29:42 PM »
I think I would have to move up to bicycle size flywheels to get that kind of force. I was hoping to work in the small desktop stirling engine size range. I may have to switch to very small magnets to play at that scale.

I'm still going to fiddle with this one and see what I can learn.

Offline ryanjrx7

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2007, 04:53:30 AM »
Good job Ken!  Like Gyula said, more mass on that flywheel.  Try to get your hands on some lead weights, like fishing weights, or maybe some of those stick on weights from a local tire place used for balancing wheels. That way you can stick them uniformly on that flywheel. You've got a pretty good push from those magnets, your right about not storing enough of it.  That exact design may or may not work, but your going to learn a lot from it, I know I did from seeing it.  Thanks you for posting the video, and spinning the machine so we can see it from different angles. 

Offline ken_nyus

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Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2007, 09:48:51 AM »
Made a few quick, minor changes. (Well OK I stepped on the device and broke it, and as the hot glue gun was warming up I realized I had a chance to change a few things)

Got rid of the heavy push rod and it's counterweight, and replaced it with a thin brass rod. Got rid of some more counterweights that were on the axle opposite the rotating magnet. Removing all this weight, alot of which was reciprocating, really freed up the movement.

I also added some more mass to the flywheel, in the form of coins and blutac.

I measured the stroke now and it is 1 1/16". I also made the crank a bit adjustable in the stroke length. The offset angle between the crank and the rotating magnet can be adjusted by setting it with the nut holding it on the axle.The distance between the reciprocating magnet and the rotating magnet can be adjusted also as it is just duct tape holding it down to the platform on the slide.

You can see the new version here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtExIyoHDFA


 

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