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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: hartiberlin on May 29, 2005, 12:59:35 PM

Title: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 29, 2005, 12:59:35 PM
Hi All,
have a look at this video:

http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/realplayer/bearing.rm

There you can see, that the second steelball is knocked away from the
magnet and the first steel ball.

This principle also does apply in Butch?s motor.

But Butch?s motor is more genieous, cause there the
"1st steelball " can also be knocked off again !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on May 29, 2005, 08:28:52 PM
This principle is what drive a Gauss Rifle.
http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html

What led to my Vertical Gauss Rifle.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/verticalGaussrifle-basicprinciple.jpg)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 29, 2005, 09:07:52 PM
@pinobot

Very good idea !
This should work !

Have you already tried it ?

I think this really could work.

It is also not too hard to build !

I have to order a few steel bearing balls myself.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on May 30, 2005, 03:37:11 AM
I have not build it, im still looking for something that is 100% sure to work. ;D
Anyhow, i've made some modifications to it to eliminate unknown factors, like: What if the ball that comes in pulls up the highest ball in the stack or what if the energy that is transfered through the balls is eliminated by the magnet.
So, this is where the vertical gauss rifle is now.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/verticalGaussrifle4-basicprinciple.gif)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 30, 2005, 03:14:22 PM
Good idea Pinobot,
but I guess the easiest way to try it would be
to use your first idea and mabe have at least 4 or 5 balls inside the ring magnet
so at every side the last ball sticks out already quite a lot.

When then a new ball approaches, it will kick the last ball really easy out.

Then one could also use several of these unit along the tube, so that every 45 degrees there
is such an acceleration magnet-ball  stack.

Should also work with just 2 magnets sitting next to the tube.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on May 30, 2005, 03:39:23 PM
The balls are pulled away from the magnet by gravity, it's best to put the magnet where gravity has the most influence, halfway down.
The only thing that can spoil your day is the fact that the energy of the magnet-system (magnet+balls) must be greater than the Potential gravitational Energy that would be produced when you let the top ball fall the distance top ball - botom ball.
The Potential Gravitational Energy is easily calculated, the energy of the magnet-system (magnet+balls) is an other matter.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/gpot.html#mgh

Btw, if it works, run like hell !
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 30, 2005, 11:38:27 PM
Pinobot, I did order today a few steelballs via Ebay.
When they come in, I will try it too.
Tommorow I go out buying a plastic hose for the balls to  go in there.

I still have 6 or 8 neodymn magnets here, which I will first try it with.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on May 31, 2005, 01:01:31 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/VerticalGaussRifleTest.gif)

The test is simple, first you drop one ball in on the left without the magnet and balls in place, and record the hight of the ball on the right, that way you know how much friction there is (if the ball for instance goes up 90% on the right you have 10% friction loss).
Then you put in the magnet and balls in place and drop the ball on the left, if the ball goes higher on the right than the first time you've gained energy. If the ball jumps out of the tube you have OU for sure. :)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 31, 2005, 02:00:30 AM
Pinobot,
reminds my of my old SBMOT.
See:
http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/sbmot01.htm

I unfortunately never built it.
But now it is time to do so...
Also you would need more than 1 steel ball at each end and in the center.
so go with at least 2 balls in each place, then it should work.

Regards. Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on May 31, 2005, 09:02:38 AM
I've tried that configuration, it's a normal Gauss Rifle but i couldn't get i close looped. :-[
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 31, 2005, 11:24:06 AM
I've tried that configuration, it's a normal Gauss Rifle but i couldn't get i close looped. :-[

Hi Pino,
which one did you try exactly ?
If you try the SBMOT you need to have 3 Balls between each magnet and
also 2 balls at the end on each side.
Only then will the SBMOT probably work.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on May 31, 2005, 11:35:05 AM
I've tried this one a year ago from sci-toys.com
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/GaussRifle.jpg)
Thought of a zillion combinations but always ended up with the balls stuck to the magnet.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 31, 2005, 12:15:06 PM
Pino,
I did buy today a plastic hose with 16 mm inner diameter and 22 mm outer diameter.
When the steelballs will be getting in here I will try it myself first to see, if I can get
the balls shooting out of a "U" turn plastic hose configuration.

As to the SCI Toys experiment:
As I said, you need between each magnet pair 3 balls and at the end you need at each side
2 balls.
So according to the upper pic you would need 13 balls and not just 9 balls
as is shown.
Then the very right ball, when it comes down again, should be able to kick the very laft ball
back up again and it should get kicked higher and higher.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: m668004 on May 31, 2005, 04:05:28 PM
Perhaps this would work?

M.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 01, 2005, 11:49:08 AM
@m668004

Could you please explain, how it should work ?
Gets not clear to me.
What is rotating and how are the balls moved ?
Thanks !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: m668004 on June 01, 2005, 01:17:01 PM
Hello Stefan,

I have attached a picture to show how I mean this. It is a view from the top = the balls move in horicontal circles. They are free to move. This could be arrived by fixing each ball on a separate rotorarm or by the installation of a curved groove where the balls can freely roll and collide.

M.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: m668004 on June 01, 2005, 02:54:56 PM
Another idea ... Its in principle like the straight line horizontal gaussrifle, but vertically mounted and curved. Ringmagnets are used, so the amount of balls is always the same and the loop is theoretical closed.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 01, 2005, 03:25:44 PM
"I did buy today a plastic hose..."
- You need at least hard plastic tube, not a hose as the hose has pretty high coefficient of friction, almost as a rubber.
And keep in mind, even when ball falls, it's still under action of magnetic field and it slows  down falling and consequently not enough force to come back to top.
 
Three balls between magnets will not work, because the middle ball has to kick magnet in the nearest point where the magnetic field is maximum. But if you have a ball already sitting on a magnet force of attraction will be in 4-6 times less.  Unfortunately "rifle" works only in one direction...
 
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 01, 2005, 03:50:07 PM

And keep in mind, even when ball falls, it's still under action of magnetic field and it slows down falling and consequently not enough force to come back to top.

Gravity is used to pull away the botom ball from the magnet, the magnetic forces acting on the top and botom ball are not equal.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 01, 2005, 03:52:48 PM
@m668004

Thanks for the 2 pics.
Now it is getting clear.
In a few days I will get the steel balls from my Ebay order.
Then I will try a few configurations.
The plastic hose and the magnets I already have here at home.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 01, 2005, 04:49:46 PM
Thank God for summer, my brain's defrosting.
@Hartiberlin
If you get your balls would you please test the following setup, i would like to know if it's possible to gain height using balls to transfer the energy upwards.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/VerticalGaussRifleTest2.gif)

I've already thought of a way that would make in possible for sure again transfering the energy around the balls, only no close loop but working on that.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/verticalGaussrifle5-basicprinciple.gif)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 01, 2005, 09:13:36 PM
Pino,
why do you think, this might push the last ball in the upper drawing up over the top ?
cause the ball is already higher in the tube ?
But if it goes over the top opening, it is not reversible,
so what effect should this have without magnets ?

Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 01, 2005, 10:42:44 PM
I know it's not reversible.? ;D
But i need the info for new designs, you can imagine that you'll offset the row of ball by using a magnet.
I'm working on a new design that also incorporates my Energy-stacker, it'll blow you away.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 01, 2005, 10:44:57 PM
@Pinobot

I see, but why do you need these guide legs at the spokes, that
hold the balls ? I think they are not needed.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 01, 2005, 10:48:42 PM
I know it's not reversible.  ;D
But i need the info for new designs, you can imagine that you'll offset the row of ball by using a magnet.
I'm working on a new design that also incorporates my Energy-stacker, it'll blow you away. ;)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: FreeEnergy on June 01, 2005, 11:04:20 PM
here's an idea
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 02, 2005, 01:15:35 AM
Finished the general idea, the picture is not complete, all roters have extensions like the green one but it takes a lot of time to draw in paint so you just have to imagine them there. :-\
Don't look at the geometry, it's probably completely wrong, maybe needs more rotors,greater/closer distance to magnet etc.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/pinobot/energystacker9.gif)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 02, 2005, 01:36:26 AM
"Gravity is used to pull away the botom ball from the magnet, the magnetic forces acting on the top and botom ball are not equal".
- The same gravity will not allow ball go up. Yes they r equal, otherwise you have a "not equal" magnet...
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 02, 2005, 02:10:51 AM
You just don't understand the concept.
Read: http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 02, 2005, 04:21:40 AM
And you how these things work...
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: prometheus_effect on June 02, 2005, 06:20:53 AM
I've tried that configuration, it's a normal Gauss Rifle but i couldn't get i close looped. :-[

Hi Pinobot,

Of course the Gauss Rifle is not OU as there is no new energy creation here but just a release of stored potential energy.

Greg
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 02, 2005, 06:51:18 AM
That's right, Greg. Closed magnetic systems can't work.
What we have to do (at least i'm trying) is to break the closed magnetic field by small amount of energy, and  use huge reserve of energy of magnets to drive this "controlling"device. The same way, like Adams uses solenoids to actuate forces in proper moment.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on June 02, 2005, 09:58:02 AM
That's right, Greg. Closed magnetic systems can't work.
What we have to do (at least i'm trying) is to break the closed magnetic field by small amount of energy, and use huge reserve of energy of magnets to drive this "controlling"device. The same way, like Adams uses solenoids to actuate forces in proper moment.
Thats the same thing, the energy you need to break the closed magnetic field is the same as the energy gained, it's still a closed system otherwise it's no OU.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: FreeEnergy on June 02, 2005, 10:28:21 AM
yeah that is what i thought.

i think this will work for sure.

we will see soon enough...
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 02, 2005, 01:18:11 PM
Pino,
why do you need these green extensions ?
I think they are obsolet.
Also you have the wrong polarity of the magnets  ?
ahh I see, it is turning clockwise ?
So at 6 oclock the sticking must first be overcome
and then the left stator magnet track will help to get the  rotor magnets
up to the top again ?
Interesting idea.
Should work.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 02, 2005, 01:27:35 PM
here's an idea

@FreeEnergyman
When I get my steel balls, I will try it like your diagram
too.
The question is, if 2 or 3 or 4  balls  must sit between
each stator pair magnets ?
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 03, 2005, 03:05:30 AM
Quote
Thats the same thing, the energy you need to break the closed magnetic field is the same as the energy gained, it's still a closed system otherwise it's no OU.
Quote
It is not necessary if to use system of magnetic "indemnification"-compensator, for example, as in figure.
(Can't attach a picture, how can i do that, .doc or .bitmap?).

Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 03, 2005, 03:34:20 AM
Use JPEG or GIF pic as an attachment
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 03, 2005, 07:50:14 AM
I see, but where's site's tools for attaching. What's procedure?
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 03, 2005, 10:56:13 AM
If you click reply, then you get a new message window and underneath you have
an ATTACHMENT line, where you can search your harddisk and
attach a picture to the posting.
Hope this helps.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: FreeEnergy on June 03, 2005, 11:41:30 AM
just have it setup on a horizontal level. no ring magnet needed for this setup, but yes a ring magnet should be better.

i should be getting some metal balls tomorrow!

(http://)
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 03, 2005, 12:07:27 PM
I just got my steel balls in today.
Stay tuned.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Light on June 04, 2005, 03:51:16 AM
If you click reply, then you get a new message window and underneath you have
an ATTACHMENT line, where you can search your harddisk and
attach a picture to the posting.
Hope this helps.
Thanks.

Thanks, I'll try. I simply used quick reply.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 04, 2005, 04:18:43 PM
With Quick Reply there is no attachment window.
You must use the normal REPLY button.
Hoep thsi helps.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 04, 2005, 04:26:45 PM
I just tried a first setup with my new steelballs and the plastic hose and the magnets.

The problem is, that my hose has an inner diameter of 16 mm and I only
have 10 mm and 15 mm steelballs.
Now the 15 mm balls are just too wide, they begin to stick to the inner
walls at some spots and this does not work.
The 10 mm balls are again too small for the 16 mm
hose, cause if I put a magnet outside some of them aligns in zick-zack
curves, like  .`.?.?.?.?.?.?. 
sothis is happening cause the hose diameter is too big versus the 10 mm ball
diameter.
Also the hose has pretty big friction onto the balls.

Also I have seen, that it would need steel cores sideways to attract the balls better to the
magnet and this must be done like something simular like multiple SMOT ramps in a row
around the hose circle.
So it must be a very precise setup to get this thing to work.
So it will take some time and the right hoses and balls and the right
metal cores and magnets to get something to work.
Not so easy and all must be fixed well to a stable table.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: gaby de wilde on January 07, 2007, 04:30:54 PM
It's funny to see my idea (http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/chainreactor) was already invented.

I just tried a first setup with my new steelballs and the plastic hose and the magnets.

hose, cause if I put a magnet outside some of them aligns in zick-zack
curves, like  .`.?.?.?.?.?.?. 
sothis is happening cause the hose diameter is too big versus the 10 mm ball
diameter.
Also the hose has pretty big friction onto the balls.

I use a magnetic field that is less strong. Don't be greedy, just allow gravity to do the work.  :D

This is also interesting. Not very clear, it uses the smot's vertical area.

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=291.0;attach=3905;image)

Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: msurucu on January 10, 2007, 09:02:29 AM
is it closed system?
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: rotorhead on January 10, 2007, 06:19:27 PM
All,

Try the following arrangement of balls, magnets, and springs to make a reciprocating gauss rifle.

<----

////_____00[]0_____00[]0_____00[]0_____00[]0___0_\\\\


When the ball reaches the far end the spring will send it back in the opposite direction:

---->

////_0____0[]00_____0[]00_____0[]00_____0[]00_____\\\\


The ball will have accumulated a lot of kinetic energy. The spring at the end will return most of that energy and send the ball in the opposite direction with more force than when it initially started, force that will continue to build.

How do we harness this energy? The steel balls will have remenant magnetism for a brief period of time after leaving each magnet. What happens if we place inductive coils beside or underneath the track?
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: rotorhead on January 16, 2007, 06:14:41 PM
Has anyone tried my suggestion above?
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Charlie_V on April 03, 2007, 05:14:44 AM
I tried this before, in various ways.  It doesn't work because you need the initial steel ball to collide with the magnet. 

Referring to msurucu's drawing, as the initial steel ball (left) approaches the magnet, the field increases its speed giving it more energy.  On the right side of the magnet, the second ball just transfers the momentum but the third ball is far enough away to only feel a small effect from the field.  When the initial ball collides with the magnet, it transfers the increased momentum through the second ball and into the third one, which is weakly attracted and goes flying away - what energy lost in the momentum transfer is small compared to what the magnet gave the initial ball.

When you insert a forth ball like in msurucu's drawing (which would be the second ball on the left), the initial ball never gets the speed boost that it does when allowed to collide with the magnet.  So when it strikes the added ball on the left, what little energy that it did gain is attenuated in the momentum transfer and the system fails. 

I also tried this idea with electrostatically charged balls.  Unfortunately, macro-scale electrostatic forces are so much smaller compared to the magnetic force.  To get the equivalent you need so much voltage that it will cause breakdown on the balls and you'll loose all the charge. 

I abandoned this idea :(
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: gaby de wilde on April 07, 2007, 05:07:30 PM
I've learned a great deal from this experiment. ;)

Let me be the first to say:

I haven't done enough research to make a conclusion.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Rapadura on April 03, 2010, 04:14:59 AM
Hmmm... May someone please give me an explanation of why it should NOT work?

I need to understand what prevents a gauss gun from becoming a perpetual motion machine.

Inspiring video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP6_vXus0F4
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Charlie_V on April 04, 2010, 06:22:43 PM
In the arrangement posted by rotorhead above (which I also tried), the magnetic gradient between the left and right are not unbalanced enough.  If you have just 3 balls, two on one side of the magnet, none on the other with the third ball moving toward the magnet, the magnetic force is strong enough to knock the last stationary ball off.  When its balanced (two on one side, one on the other), the entering ball has the same attraction force as the stiction force of the last stationary ball.  So the ball enters and the kinetic energy gain is canceled by the stiction force of the last stationary ball - I hope this is making sense to you guys, its hard to explain without a picture and I'm lazy right now.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Rapadura on April 04, 2010, 11:57:11 PM
I see now... The steel ball that will be "launched" needs to be at a certain distance from the central magnet, in order to the magnetic attraction force that is getting it stuck to the central magnet be weak enough to not prevent it from being "launched".

I understand now... It needs to be unbalanced. You can't put the same number of balls at the two sides. You need always to have more balls at the side where is the ball that will be "launched" than in the side of the "trigger" ball.

So it will never work in a closed loop. Let's forget the gauss gun...
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on November 28, 2011, 10:33:44 PM
Designed another Vertical Gauss Rifle, this one 'works' by letting the steel ball fall slowly down the ramp to stop it sticking to the magnet.
Still working on the idea but it thought i'd share it.  ;D


Next month i'm gonna buy me some magnets and steel balls and play around a little.
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on December 01, 2011, 07:32:27 PM
Simplified the design.  :)







Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: Low-Q on December 04, 2011, 10:14:55 PM
Simplified the design.  :)
Is it any reason why the sphere magnet at the bottom want to leave the ferro material and follow the curve? What part of the path determine the direction of the sphere magnet? Could it likely move the opposite direction?


Just very sceptic, but you should buy yourself a couple of magnets and play with them.


Vidar
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on December 05, 2011, 02:35:11 AM
Hi,
As the magnetic ball falls, the idea is that it's slowly moved out of range of the ferrous metal.
I ordered some small balls at Dealextreme to do some simple experiments with a seesaw.
This is still just an idea, the final design will probably look completely different. Maybe i'll need to design on that has multiple stages or something.



Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on December 13, 2011, 02:43:49 PM
OK, got a few magnetic spheres and did some testing, ordered 12,7 mm which is the same size as GeoMag balls.
The problem is that these spheres have a north and a south pole, as soon as they get near ferro metal the ferro metal is magnetised and the sphere can't roll because it's stuck in the magnetic field it created.
So what i need is a monopole, not a real one of course but a hollow sphere  that has the north pole on the inside and a south pole on the outside (or vice versa).
Title: Re: Bill Muller has shown it too !
Post by: pinobot on December 13, 2011, 03:22:17 PM
For the one with the bar magnet and steel ball i need a long bar magnet that sticks out well above and  below the contraption so the ball won't stick.