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Author Topic: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?  (Read 15524 times)

Offline HopeForHumanity

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  • Posts: 295
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2007, 10:22:46 PM »
What if we tried these ideas, but add zero friction? ???

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Offline apollo69

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Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2007, 12:42:21 AM »
http://www.schmalenbach.de/patent/

I think the triangle SMOT idea has been tried without any luck

Check this

http://www.hcrs.at/SMOT.HTM

I have been playing around with the idea too....but..I guess is perfect in combination with another device though  ::)

Offline amen23

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Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2007, 03:01:38 AM »
The SMOT idea works but not the way you planned it........the way you've applied it will never work.1) Your exit for the ball is all wrong. The ball has to exit the forcefield before the tapered end of the row of magnets (about 3/4 of the way,possible more). To exit ,gravity is used (a straight drop out using the mass of your ball against the pull of the magnets) and it has to drop below the force field that surrounds the magnets at the end of the row.(if there isnt enought clearance it will attract)

which means you're faced with a dilemma .....2) your incline should be such that after you ball has broken free from the force field, you got enough energy to return it to to the start. The bigger the incline , the more attraction you need to pull your ball up, the stronger your magnets will need to be, the greater the force field that awaits you at the end. The smaller your ball ......ect ect

you can play around with the size of ball you are using...????
you can play around with the lenght of your rows of magnets ...????
you can even play around withthe strenght of your magnets ...???

 ;) just my 3 cents worth

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2007, 03:01:38 AM »
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Offline jeffc

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Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2007, 08:00:11 AM »
What if we tried these ideas, but add zero friction? ???

 ;D
Zero friction would be very nice.  But, sadly it won't happen!   >:(

Offline jeffc

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  • Posts: 96
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2007, 08:03:47 AM »
http://www.schmalenbach.de/patent/

I think the triangle SMOT idea has been tried without any luck

Check this

http://www.hcrs.at/SMOT.HTM

I have been playing around with the idea too....but..I guess is perfect in combination with another device though  ::)

Thanks for those additional models.  I am trying to learn from each SMOT variation I can find.  There is still some experimentation to try and this information is helpful.

Regards,
jeffc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2007, 08:03:47 AM »
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Offline jeffc

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Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2007, 08:10:01 AM »
The SMOT idea works but not the way you planned it........the way you've applied it will never work.1) Your exit for the ball is all wrong. The ball has to exit the forcefield before the tapered end of the row of magnets (about 3/4 of the way,possible more). To exit ,gravity is used (a straight drop out using the mass of your ball against the pull of the magnets) and it has to drop below the force field that surrounds the magnets at the end of the row.(if there isnt enought clearance it will attract)

which means you're faced with a dilemma .....2) your incline should be such that after you ball has broken free from the force field, you got enough energy to return it to to the start. The bigger the incline , the more attraction you need to pull your ball up, the stronger your magnets will need to be, the greater the force field that awaits you at the end. The smaller your ball ......ect ect

you can play around with the size of ball you are using...????
you can play around with the lenght of your rows of magnets ...????
you can even play around withthe strenght of your magnets ...???

 ;) just my 3 cents worth

@amen23
Hi and thanks for the feedback. I have been worried about the bearing's escape from the end of the magnet series.   Thats the main reason I wanted the have the magnet at (F) to increase the horizontal force. 

Don?t you think this will have an impact?

Offline Motorcoach1

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Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2007, 08:45:01 AM »
 It would seam to put a upwared roll at the D positon at the end of the ramp so the inerta would be equvelent to the speed of the ball and magnetic force of the first permenet magnet to catch and throw to ball to the next PM and so forth till it repetes. thake a strip of sheet metal and try it, roll it at the end with different radiouses. A small radious will slow the ball down and a larger one will speed it up till the inerca is balenced over the curve and magnetic flux feild to the next PM .

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2007, 08:45:01 AM »
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Offline HopeForHumanity

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  • Posts: 295
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2007, 08:52:27 AM »
What if we tried these ideas, but add zero friction? ???

 ;D
Zero friction would be very nice.  But, sadly it won't happen!   >:(

But wait, physics doesn't say almost zero friction isn't possible.  :D

Offline gyulasun

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Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2007, 12:19:05 PM »
Hi Jeff,

If you are not very keen on reading German language at this site: http://www.hcrs.at/SMOT.HTM you may use a free online translator like this:
http://www.freetranslation.com/web.asp

On the right (upper) side you can see Free Text Translator Free Web Translator   and by choosing the latter you can copy the Austrian url and choose the translation direction.

Regards
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2007, 12:19:05 PM »
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Offline amen23

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  • Posts: 3
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2007, 11:31:48 PM »
hi jeff ........ your point (F) --i dont dismiss the idea and yes it has its merits and might work. However i see a problem with your verticle drop out between (F) and (C).
You will need to gain enough height to drop out of both force fields and still have enough energy to get it back to the start.

I have another theory for you to ponder on .....I'll explain my thoughts on this first.

Any magnet has a force field that will attract a metal object toward its centre . So it stands to reason that a heavier mass will travel past the centre of attraction.(Inertia/mass ect) .  Beyond the centre the mass will run into resistance becos the centre in now behind it and the attraction is now in the opposite direction.

Imagine a falling object from space ... it will be attracted until it reaches the centre of the earth (theoretically) after it pass the centre, its travelling against gravity.

This is the way I think about SMOT .....your ball bearing needs to exit just after the centre of the force field. Its got a great 'run up' and needs to exit before it gets slowed down.

I thought about this a couple of years back and came up with a different approach. Never got round to testing it. I'll try a draw something here ......

                                                                ^   (H)   Using this as a circuit/track
                                          RAMP  ----->   /    --------------------------->
        l------->Start                                  /                                               l
        l          ----   ----   ----   ----   ---- / ---- ---- ---- ----                       l
        l          l PMl   lPMl   l     l   l    l   l     l   l    l l     l l    l l     l                      l
        l          ----   ----   ----   ----   ----    ---  ---- ---- ----                       l
        l                                                                                                      l
        <------------------------------------------------------------------------

Half way through your Smot build a ramp .......let your bearing gain speed -hit the ramp (jump up)and hopefully be elevated to point (H) on you circuit /track let it roll down to the start again. It should hopefully clear the force field ..... dont elevate your SMOT let it gain as much speed as possible. Kinda like a sling shot around the moon idea!


hope you understood that

cheers
don

Offline jeffc

  • Jr. Member
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  • Posts: 96
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 11:12:54 PM »
It would seam to put a upwared roll at the D positon at the end of the ramp so the inerta would be equvelent to the speed of the ball and magnetic force of the first permenet magnet to catch and throw to ball to the next PM and so forth till it repetes. thake a strip of sheet metal and try it, roll it at the end with different radiouses. A small radious will slow the ball down and a larger one will speed it up till the inerca is balenced over the curve and magnetic flux feild to the next PM .

@Motorcoach1
Thanks for the idea about the sheet metal, I?m going to try it.  I?m working on a few designs that will allow me to vary the key factors like inclines, heights, and with your idea I can modify the radius of that curve too!

Regards,
jeffc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 11:12:54 PM »
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Offline jeffc

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2007, 11:14:19 PM »
What if we tried these ideas, but add zero friction? ???

 ;D
Zero friction would be very nice.  But, sadly it won't happen!   >:(

But wait, physics doesn't say almost zero friction isn't possible.  :D

I'll take whatever physics is willing to give!   ;D

Offline jeffc

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2007, 10:35:39 AM »
Hi Jeff,

If you are not very keen on reading German language at this site: http://www.hcrs.at/SMOT.HTM you may use a free online translator like this:
http://www.freetranslation.com/web.asp

On the right (upper) side you can see Free Text Translator Free Web Translator   and by choosing the latter you can copy the Austrian url and choose the translation direction.

Regards
Gyula

Thanks Gyula,
The translator worked quite well.  The variations taken by the author were instructive in helping me try to design around the same issues he encountered. 
Knowing what DOESN?T work is very helpful at this stage so that I don?t waste time tinkering with impossible configurations. 

Of course, I?m not sure this is possible to begin with, so it may just be a learning experience.

Regards,
Jeffc

Offline jeffc

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2007, 10:57:20 AM »
hi jeff ........ your point (F) --i dont dismiss the idea and yes it has its merits and might work. However i see a problem with your verticle drop out between (F) and (C).
You will need to gain enough height to drop out of both force fields and still have enough energy to get it back to the start.

I have another theory for you to ponder on .....I'll explain my thoughts on this first.

Any magnet has a force field that will attract a metal object toward its centre . So it stands to reason that a heavier mass will travel past the centre of attraction.(Inertia/mass ect) .  Beyond the centre the mass will run into resistance becos the centre in now behind it and the attraction is now in the opposite direction.

Imagine a falling object from space ... it will be attracted until it reaches the centre of the earth (theoretically) after it pass the centre, its travelling against gravity.

This is the way I think about SMOT .....your ball bearing needs to exit just after the centre of the force field. Its got a great 'run up' and needs to exit before it gets slowed down.

I thought about this a couple of years back and came up with a different approach. Never got round to testing it. I'll try a draw something here ......

                                                                ^   (H)   Using this as a circuit/track
                                          RAMP  ----->   /    --------------------------->
        l------->Start                                  /                                               l
        l          ----   ----   ----   ----   ---- / ---- ---- ---- ----                       l
        l          l PMl   lPMl   l     l   l    l   l     l   l    l l     l l    l l     l                      l
        l          ----   ----   ----   ----   ----    ---  ---- ---- ----                       l
        l                                                                                                      l
        <------------------------------------------------------------------------

Half way through your Smot build a ramp .......let your bearing gain speed -hit the ramp (jump up)and hopefully be elevated to point (H) on you circuit /track let it roll down to the start again. It should hopefully clear the force field ..... dont elevate your SMOT let it gain as much speed as possible. Kinda like a sling shot around the moon idea!


hope you understood that

cheers
don

Don,
Thanks for the detailed post.  I?ve been concerned about the ?escape velocity? problem from the beginning, so your input on this is valuable.   

I?ve received some feedback that the SMOT configuration can produce quit a large acceleration and that the bearing might even hit the wall of the triangle enclosure.  I think ultimately there will be many factors including: incline, magnet strength and arrangement, bearing mass, friction, and probably many more things.  So I?ll just have to experiment.

I understand where you were going with the diagram.  Using a ramp to escape the magnetic force is an interesting concept that I could try to apply to the triangular model I?m building.  I?ll add that to my testing configurations!   8)

Regards,
jeffc

Offline Freezer

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  • Posts: 414
Re: SMOT Triangular Enclosure Variation, Closed Loop?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2007, 01:43:34 AM »
Deleted. Debunked my own idea.  :D

 

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