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Author Topic: Newman machine with a closed loop selfrunning without batteries or solar panels  (Read 59883 times)

Offline mikestocks2006

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To keep it simple,
take the energy stored in a cpapcitor that can be discharged over a "constant current circuit" for simplification purposes.

A capacitor charged at 150 volts, discharging one amp, and a capacitor  charged  at 1 volt also discharging at 1 amp.

Are you saying they are storing the same amount of energy?

Not at all.  I'm say that 16 identical batteries store 16x the energy of one, whether they are series or parallel doesn't matter.  What you're implying is that in series, they store 16^2 x the energy and in parallel only 16x the energy.  See?  It can't work that way.

Hum

So isn't 16x  626mAh  = 10000mAh=10Ah ???

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Offline Humbugger

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No, not in series it's not.  You are not allowed to multiply the amps for series connections.  Only the volts.  Reason being, all the current is flowing in every battery when they are in series.  1/16 of the current is flowing in each battery when they are in parallel.

Are you getting a live audio feed in the background?  I am.  How odd.

Humbugger

Offline mikestocks2006

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No, not in series it's not.  You are not allowed to multiply the amps for series connections.  Only the volts.  Reason being, all the current is flowing in every battery when they are in series.  1/16 of the current is flowing in each battery when they are in parallel.

Are you getting a live audio feed in the background?  I am.  How odd.

Humbugger

Who's multiplying amps in series? We are talking total energy, see my posts again, series vs parallel etc.

Again as i posted above 16x 626mAh = 10000mAh = 10 Ah (energy units not current)!

lol yes there are some peoople talking in the background.

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Offline Humbugger

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Your math is fine.  Your misunderstanding is in the idea that the mAh rating is energy.  It's only energy once you multiply by a voltage.  Example:

ten batteries, each rated 5V 3ah  okay?

each battery holds 5x3=15w for 1 hour = 15wh  so 5 batteries hold 5x15 = 75wh

now, put them in parallel and you have the same as one battery rated 5V 15ah = 75wh
put them in series and you have the same as one battery 25V Xah = 75wh

Solve for X

Hint X=3

You were cheating by multiplying in the voltage two different times, first when you placed the batteries in series and then again when you (incorrectly) multiplied the mAh rating for a series connection.  See?  Only get to multiply the V factor by the number of cells one time, not twice!

Humb

Offline mikestocks2006

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Your math is fine.  Your misunderstanding is in the idea that the mah rating is energy.  It's only energy once you multiple by a voltage.  Example:

ten batteries, each rated 5V 3ah  okay?

each battery holds 5x3=15w for 1 hour = 15wh  so 5 batteries hold 5x15 = 75wh

now, put them in parallel and you have the same as one battery rated 5V 15ah = 75wh
put them in series and you have the same as one battery 25V Xah = 75wh

Solve for X

Hint X=3


You are mixing energy units with current units.
What units is your X?

Please read my first post again, the one you've objected.

I stated that those 16 batteries have a total energy of 10000 mAh or 10 Ah

which you replied
"The ampere hour capacity is not multiplied when the batteries are in series.  It's still 625mah total, not 10ah."

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Offline Humbugger

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Ampere Hours.  which only becomes an energy rating after you multiply in a voltage.  Then the unit shifts to an energy unit, watthours, joules, etc.  Ampere Hours is a unit of current capacity, not energy.  In a given battery, we tend to think of it as an energy capacity number but that's because the voltage is assumed to be fixed at the voltage rating of the battery. 

You only get to multiply the Ah rating of the batteries if they are in parallel, where you don't multiply the voltage.  In series, you multiply the voltage but not the Ah rating.

are we there yet?

Hum

To prove this to yourself very easily, simply take your 144 Volts times 10Ah and you get 1440 watthours.

Now do it for a parallel connection and you find your error, since it's now only 9.x Volts times 10Ah which is only 90-some watthours.  Get it?

Your original statement would have been the easiest free energy i ever heard of!  You can see that you don't get sixteen-fold energy increase when you put the same batteries in series instead of in parallel. 

You get either way the same total energy and it's 9V x 625mA x 1hr x 16 = 90 Watthours total

Your mistake is simple:  You've got the 16 term in there twice!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 07:18:28 PM by Humbugger »

Offline mikestocks2006

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Ampere Hours.  which only becomes an energy rating after you multiply in a voltage.  Then the unit shifts to an energy unit, watthours, joules, etc.  Ampere Hours is a unit of current capacity, not energy.  In a given battery, we tend to think of it as an energy capacity number but that's because the voltage is assumed to be fixed at the voltage rating of the battery. 

You only get to multiply the Ah rating of the batteries if they are in parallel, where you don't multiply the voltage.  In series, you multiply the voltage but not the Ah rating.

are we there yet?

Hum

To prove this to yourself very easily, simply take your 144 Volts times 10Ah and you get 1440 watthours.

Now do it for a parallel connection and you find your error, since it's now only 9.x Volts times 10Ah which is only 90-some watthours.  Get it?

1 battery has capacity of  625 mAh
16 batteries have how much total capacity?

I stated they have a total  capacity of 16x625=10000mAh or 10 Ah, which you objected

Are you saying that in series the total capacity of 16 batteries is 625mAh ?
but only in parallel is 10000mAh ?

You are mixing units and conversions. Read my capacitor simple example again.

The total system energy capacity (16 9v batteries) is the same either in series or in parallel. You can take out the same total energy.  Not sure how simpler that this can be stated.

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Offline Humbugger

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Okay, it is apparently not quite simple enough yet for either of us!   ;D

It is you who seem to me to be slightly confused regarding what an Ampere hour is.  Let's ask this: 

If you have a battery of unknown voltage rating but you know it is a 50 Amp hour battery, and it is charged fully to exactly that (it will run dead in exactly one hour at a constant 50A drain), can you tell me in Watt hours or any other unit of energy how much energy you can get out of it?

No, you can't because you would have to know the voltage first to figure out the energy.  Ampere hours are not an energy unit.  Ampere hours when multiplied by Volts become an energy unit, Watthours.

The reason we get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries when we put them in parallel is that only the 1/n part of current (n = number of batteries in parallel) flows in each of the batteries.

The reason we don't get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries in series is that 100% of the total current flows through each and every battery at all times.  What we do get to multiply is the voltage total, since they are in series.

Hum


Offline Humbugger

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Ampere Hours.  which only becomes an energy rating after you multiply in a voltage.  Then the unit shifts to an energy unit, watthours, joules, etc.  Ampere Hours is a unit of current capacity, not energy.  In a given battery, we tend to think of it as an energy capacity number but that's because the voltage is assumed to be fixed at the voltage rating of the battery. 

You only get to multiply the Ah rating of the batteries if they are in parallel, where you don't multiply the voltage.  In series, you multiply the voltage but not the Ah rating.

are we there yet?

Hum

To prove this to yourself very easily, simply take your 144 Volts times 10Ah and you get 1440 watthours.

Now do it for a parallel connection and you find your error, since it's now only 9.x Volts times 10Ah which is only 90-some watthours.  Get it?

1 battery has capacity of  625 mAh
16 batteries have how much total capacity?  depends if they are series or parallel

I stated they have a total  capacity of 16x625=10000mAh or 10 Ah, which you objected  still do

Are you saying that in series the total capacity of 16 batteries is 625mAh ?   yesbut only in parallel is 10000mAh ?  yes

You are mixing units and conversions.   nope   Read my capacitor simple example again.

The total system energy capacity (16 9v batteries) is the same either in series or in parallel. You can take out the same total energy.  Not sure how simpler that this can be stated.  no arguments here with these three sentences

Hey Mike...

I know we probably should have taken this elsewhere about ten posts ago to avoid pissing off Stefan and others who come to the thread for Joseph Newman news.  We could take it private, but I think there is something important to be learned here and others might want to folow our confusion until it is resolved.

I've thought about starting a thread called Humbugger Tries to Teach Basic Electronic Terminology and Relationships.  I think this conversation would be a good candidate.  We are just missing a basic understanding here and, at this point, we don't seem to be converging on it very fast. 

I'm glad we can "argue" without getting too frustrated or getting angry at each other.  If anyone cares to follow along on this until we reach a clear verdict, it's going here:


http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3287.msg49199.html#msg49199

Humbugger

@Stefan  Could you move these posts there for us?  It starts with reply #24; God knows where it ends!  I'm going to try to find an appropriate location and title.  When I do, I'll come back and edit this post to put the link in.  Sorry for the trouble.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 10:23:51 PM by Humbugger »

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Offline mikestocks2006

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Okay, it is apparently not quite simple enough yet for either of us!   ;D

It is you who seem to me to be slightly confused regarding what an Ampere hour is.  Let's ask this: 

If you have a battery of unknown voltage rating but you know it is a 50 Amp hour battery, and it is charged fully to exactly that (it will run dead in exactly one hour at a constant 50A drain), can you tell me in Watt hours or any other unit of energy how much energy you can get out of it?

No, you can't because you would have to know the voltage first to figure out the energy.  Ampere hours are not an energy unit.  Ampere hours when multiplied by Volts become an energy unit, Watthours.

The reason we get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries when we put them in parallel is that only the 1/n part of current (n = number of batteries in parallel) flows in each of the batteries.

The reason we don't get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries in series is that 100% of the total current flows through each and every battery at all times.  What we do get to multiply is the voltage total, since they are in series.

Hum


Hum, you state above underlined:
 Ampere hours are not an energy unit

That's where the cofusion lies.
In battery terms Ah is energy unit
see: http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa/battery.html
Amp-hour
Unit of electrical energy, one amp of current flowing for one hour. Abbreviated Ah

You can't have it both ways, 625mAh when 16 9v are in series and 10000mAh when 16 9v in parralel.
The total system energy is the same.


Offline Humbugger

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I totally disagree.  The web is full of misinformation.  Tell me then, if Amp-hours are a unit of energy, how many watt hours are there in an ampere hour?

Ampere hours are IxT, current multiplied by time   This is not an energy unit.
Watt hours are ExIxT, current multiplied by voltage multiplied by time  This is an energy unit.

Amp-hours are not a unit of energy.  I don't care what anyone says.  I understand why people treat it as if it were, and that is because we always know the voltage of a given battery we are discussing so, in that context, if we are talking only about 12V batteries, we can compare the Ah ratings to compare the energy capacity.

But a 2V 100Ah battery only holds 1/6 the energy of a 12V 100Ah battery.

And the very bottom line is that if you took six of those 2V 100Ah batteries and put them in series to make one 12V battery, it would not become a 600Ah battery!  Every 12V lead acid battery, in fact, is made up of six 2V cells in series.  The Ah rating of each cell is the same as the Ah rating of the battery.

Humbugger

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Offline acp

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Re: Newman machine with a closed loop selfrunning without batteries or solar pan
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2007, 09:00:40 PM »
Sorry to chip in in this private conversation but,  :)   

If Ah are electrical energy as stated by the website above, Then a 9volt battery with 1Ah rating has the same electrical energy as a 1.5 volt battery with 1Ah rating. I think one can see that this clearly is not the case. As Humbugger has been trying to say electrical energy needs the  Amps, Volts and time duration taken into consideration.  Commonly Watt/hours are used to express electrical energy.

Offline mikestocks2006

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Not much more I can add here.
Again in battery terms amp hour rating designates its energy capacity.

Take 1 battery of 1Ah rating and discharge it completely over a ?constant current circuit? for simplicity purposes of 1 amp

It will take 1 hour to do so, right?
Total system energy capacity at start? 1 Ah  right?

Take 1 battery of 10Ah rating and discharge it over the same circuit
It will take 10 hours to do so, right?
Total system energy capacity at start? 10 Ah  right?

Take 10 batteries of 1 Ah each  in parallel and discharge them over the same circuit
How long will it take?
And what is the total system energy capacity before the discharge?

Take 10 batteries of 1 Ah each in series discharge them over the same circuit
How long will it take?
And what is the total system energy capacity before the discharge?

10 batteries in series or 10 in parallel have the same total system energy capacity


You can do the same using a fixed resistor and run a calorimetric test, you will find if you recall from the old college labs/experiments that the energies are the same.

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Newman machine with a closed loop selfrunning without batteries or solar pan
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2007, 09:19:28 PM »
Sorry to chip in in this private conversation but,  :)   

If Ah are electrical energy as stated by the website above, Then a 9volt battery with 1Ah rating has the same electrical energy as a 1.5 volt battery with 1Ah rating. I think one can see that this clearly is not the case. As Humbugger has been trying to say electrical energy needs the  Amps, Volts and time duration taken into consideration.  Commonly Watt/hours are used to express electrical energy.

Yes they are exactly the same in terms of energy charge capacity available. In  terms of energy charge capacity only

The confusion may lie in the terminology as it is used in batteries...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:23:40 PM by mikestocks2006 »

Offline EMdevices

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Guys both of you are correct in a sense but Humbugger is more correct and here's why:

My small 12 volt battery is rated at 5 AH.  (20 hr)

What does that mean?

It means they've tested the batteri and drawn an EQUIVALENT current of 5 Amps for one hour  (based on equivalence of charge that has left the battery).     

Why Equivalent??  

Because in actuality they drew less current for 20 HOURS,    (a standard practice since the internal resistance of the battery is lower at lower current levels, less heating etc..)

So the tested current was actualy 5A/20 = 0.25A for 20 hours.  But when specs are listed we speak of Amp Hours, in other words how much current can I draw from this battery in ONE HOUR and discharge it AT THE END OF THE HOUR.  (Dont' try this at home, the battery might explode if you try to discharge it that quick, that's the whole point of these specs, they're just a spec, not an actual test they've done)


Ok, that's all fine and dandy,  but AmpHours is not energy, it needs the volts specified, and what are the volts????

It's obvious , we are talking about a 12 Volt Battery, or in your case a 9 Volt one,   and although the voltage fluctuates as the battery is discharged, we can assume it stays at the rated level and any energy calculations would be fairly accurate.  (an exact calculation would integrate the voltage times the current waveform in time)


Now, I see you've been discussing SERIES vs PARALLEL  (let's take my example with 2 12 volt batteries)

1)  In series we have   24 volts putting out how much?      That's right   5 Ah  (or the equivalent 0.25 for 20 hours)

Energy is   24 Volts x 5 Amps x 3600 sec = 432 000   Joules

2) In parallel we have 12 volts putting out how much?   That's right , twice the current so 10 Ah

Energy is  12 Volts x 10 Amps x 3600 sec =  432 000 Joules

So we get the same result.

So, strictly speaking,  AmpHour units are not units of energy (but we know we are talking about a certain voltage) so we can do our calculations.


 

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