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Author Topic: Bob Boyce TPU thread  (Read 150991 times)

eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #180 on: October 08, 2007, 04:20:00 AM »
Eldarion, you have not mentioned what if anything you are reading as outputs from your other longitudinal windings.

Applied pulse width may be set for 500 ns, but what is the actual pulse width at the primary? Have you checked this to see? You may have to increase pulse width or decrease pulse width based on the response time of your drive electronics.

Bob


Hi Bob,

The pulse width is 550ns at the primary (550ns of actual "full on" where the voltage is constant), but there is about 1us rise and fall time.

I am reading a small signal at the longitudinal outputs, it looks like a smaller version of the secondary output.

Do you still have the information on the G-strain energy absorber?  I would like to study it if you don't mind--it might help me learn a bit more about this technology, seeing it from a different angle.

Thanks!

Eldarion

eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #181 on: October 09, 2007, 04:56:31 PM »
Bob,

I have one other question for you:
I am seeing a lot of ringing on the primary coils directly after each pulse.  Is this desireable, or should I be attempting to suppress it?

Right now, I am just letting it ring...
I have corrected the ringing issue, and power input has dropped.  Now, there is very little difference between open-ended drive and closed drive.  However, there is now only a tiny output signal on the secondary for any frequency between 1KHz and 200KHz.  (I didn't test beyond 200KHz.)  I seem to be getting good drive into the primary coils for the power levels involved, so I think any impedance mismatching is minimal.  Also, the rise/fall times are now in the nanosecond range.

And this is probably related.  I wonder if this could be the problem?
Quote
If you do not see the effects, then your pulses may not be of sharp enough rise/fall times, or there may be too much of an impedance mismatch between the drive and the transformer.

Thanks!

Eldarion

EDIT: So much fun to talk to myself here! ;D  At least this might help other experimenters going down the same path...
Bob did mention that unipolar DC pulses were important.  With the current MOSFET-based drive setup (the same type of setup that is used on the hydroxy system, i.e. MOSFETs used as pulldown "switches"), the impedance from the pulse generator is swinging wildly from about zero to almost infinity as the pulses are generated.  When the line is released, and the impedance is therefore nearly infinite, the primary coil will ring.  I do believe this is very bad, so I will see if I can eliminate it. 

If I am wrong in my thinking here, please say something!  It would seem that the hydroxy system is vastly different than the pure electrical version, despite similarities in coil construction.

Also something to think about, the pulse width is 500ns as you know.  That corresponds to a frequency of 1MHz, which causes the impedance of the primary to be quite high.  The impedance mismatch may be bad enough to require some sort of capacitive matching, but I am not certain at this point.

EDIT2: Hmm...maybe the signal generator and output circuit / HV potential grounds do NOT have to be separated, as I had originally thought:
Quote
Oh, all applied potentials are in reference to earth ground.
(Here Bob was referring to the HV potential and the pulse generator)

FINAL EDIT: Well, as you can see, I tried the above and still nothing.  So, I know the pulse generator is now operating properly, but something else is still wrong!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 10:15:45 PM by eldarion »

Earl

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Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #182 on: October 10, 2007, 03:58:43 PM »
Eldarion,

There are some things to keep in mind when wiring a FET switch.

1)  Regardles of the switching frequency, the physical layout must be as if you were building an amplifier for 1 GHz.
Think of all FET switching circuits as if they were a GHz linear amplifier that is being over-drriven at xxx kHz.

2) The consequence of building a GHz amplifier is that all lead lengths must be EXTREMELY short.  Every mm, every tenth of a mm is important.  All of the current loops shown in the attached drawing must be very, very, VERY short.  Do everything you can to keep the total loop lengths short, shorter, and still even more shorter.  NO effort is too much to reduce lead lengths to close to zero.

3)  The center of the universe is the source pad on the die.  Everything turns around this.  Unfortunately, the source pad is not available.  We must live with the inductance of the bonding wire to the lead.  So we make the center of the universe as close to the package as possible.  Each and every nH works against you, so keep the series nH's as low as possible.

It is not the ground that is important, it is the FET source.  Everything that needs to be grounded goes directly to here; short lead lengths to the source, as close to the package as possible.

In one consultation, it was necessary for the client to mount the SMD FET driver on the opposite side of the PCB as the FET so that its ground and the FET source had very small connection distance.

4)  All by-passing consists of 2, better 3 or more ceramic capacitors.  Use SMD if at all possilbe.  Different values.  1nF, 10nF, and or 100nF, in parallel with a SMD tantal is nice to use.  Only the caps supply the current to charge gate and coil primary, the power supply doesn't supply any current at all for circuit operation (if it does, you have problems).  All the power supply does is recharge the caps.

5)  To discharge the gate quickly, the driver IC ground must be connected directly to the FET source, keep this length as close to zero as possible.

Eldarion, the ringing should be small, are you using 3 different ceramic caps in parallel and using current loop lengths close to zero and star grounding to the source, as show in the attached schematic?

Regards, Earl

eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #183 on: October 11, 2007, 08:47:02 PM »
Hi Earl,

Thanks for the tips!  The ringing I was talking about was in the coil itself, when the FET opens.  I was able to damp that out, and now the waveform is a series of spikes as it is supposed to be.

All,

I have just realized something with regards to my DC potential supply, and thought I would post it here so that others do not make the same mistake.  See attached diagram of my output stage; this might explain my poor COP.  The impedance of the HF short circuit is extremely low in comparison to the impedance of the load and DC blocking capacitor, so most of the secondary output power is being shunted away into the HV bias supply and ground.

Eldarion

Grumpy

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #184 on: October 11, 2007, 09:33:48 PM »
Potential

eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #185 on: October 11, 2007, 10:34:08 PM »
Hi Grumpy,

Tried that with no success. :(

Also, every time I try to place a resistor in series with the HV DC lead (my "solution" to the issue which doesn't work), the resistor ends up getting hot and the load power drops.  I will have to think about this one some more...

Eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #186 on: October 11, 2007, 11:52:46 PM »
elaborate on "no success".

There is no current flowing from the "potential" connection to heat a resistor.  (?)

Earl

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Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #187 on: October 12, 2007, 12:50:15 AM »
Eldarion,

Are both sides of the 120 VAC floating?  Are they coming from the secondary of an isolation transformer?
If coming from a wall socket, I can imagine problems.

As I understand it, the HV DC has no current, so any series safety resistor should stay cold.

Earl

eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #188 on: October 12, 2007, 04:42:41 AM »
Eldarion,

Are both sides of the 120 VAC floating?  Are they coming from the secondary of an isolation transformer?
If coming from a wall socket, I can imagine problems.

As I understand it, the HV DC has no current, so any series safety resistor should stay cold.

Earl

Hi Earl, Grumpy,

I decided to run a test by removing the filter capacitor completely, as shown in the attached diagram.  I also connected the negative wire of the HV supply to the secondary coil; I did this because the negative wire should have more free electrons than the positive wire.  Removing the capacitor should remove the HF short to ground, and the system shouldn't care about the pulsed DC because the 0.68uF blocking capacitor will charge and then the voltage will stabilize.

I am finally seeing the effects of the HV potential in this configuration!  Upon startup, the waveform across the load resistor starts with a smallish voltage, and as the 0.68uF capactitor charges the waveform grows.  Engaging the HV bias supply causes the waveform to grow even more, and then even out, all with no noticeable increase in primary current during this entire period.

The source of 120V AC that I am using is an isolated 70W inverter running off of a separate battery.  The only connections between the inverter and the pulse generation circuit are through the two 120V AC connections in the diagram.  Once the inverter has been running for about 2 seconds, it can be disconnected, as the 0.68uF capacitor will maintain the HV potential.  Very strongly, too!  (Nice bright white arc upon shorting the terminals...I wonder if there is more than 160V DC there?)

I have not yet integrated the output voltage to find output power, or even tried a light bulb yet.  My gut feeling is that it is not yet overunity, based on the 'scope, but at least I am finally seeing the HV potential do something on the electrical side of the circuit!!!

BTW, I tried a low-pass filter on the HV DC circuit, with no effect.  It is possible that capacitors act like shorts to longitudinal energy, and therefore the low-pass filter may not have helped, as it would only remove the HF short.  The only thing that helped was removing the filter capacitor, but as you can see, it is not really needed.

Oh, one other thing.  Thanks for all your help and suggestions!  I usually try everything suggested (if my circuitry will handle it without major modifications), and if it doesn't work then I just move on to the next idea, be it yours or mine! :)

More tuning and test results to come...

Eldarion

Bob Boyce

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #189 on: October 12, 2007, 04:15:29 PM »
@all

I don't know if you guys realize how frustrating it is for me to try to read threads here when my browser locks up every time I try to load a page here in any thread that has a lot of image file data to load. It doesn't seem to matter if it is just a few large images, or a lot of small ones. Last night I tried to open the Eldarion thread at least 2 dozen times, and every time it locked up my browser. One time, it at least displayed the messages before it froze, so I was finally able to read the newer posts there.

@Eldarion

I don't know how you concluded that the pulse width of the PWM3 series is 11000 ns, although it is adjustable up to that, and more. I put some scope shots up of a PWM3F on the hydroxy group photos section, and the pulse widths were shown to be under 5000 ns at the outputs.

The energy application of the toroid is similar to the hydroxy application, but it is not exactly the same. Your resistor and scope are not going to behave the same as a hydroxy gas cell stack. In a hydroxy gas application, the energy flows from the secondary and through the cell stack to the ground reference. But whatever your load, a choke (or possibly a high value resistor, have not tried that) is required between the secondary and the HV DC power supply. Having the capacitor in the power supply is ok, IF you HF isolate that supply. With the connections as you are showing, the majority of the flow of energy is going to take the path to ground reference, through your power supply! Note here that ground reference means any mass that has a potential that is or can be referenced to earth ground, so it does not have to be grounded directly in order to soak up power.

I have to take wifey to a dr appt so I have to leave now. i hope this has helped.

Bob

eldarion

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #190 on: October 12, 2007, 05:18:27 PM »
@all

I don't know if you guys realize how frustrating it is for me to try to read threads here when my browser locks up every time I try to load a page here in any thread that has a lot of image file data to load. It doesn't seem to matter if it is just a few large images, or a lot of small ones. Last night I tried to open the Eldarion thread at least 2 dozen times, and every time it locked up my browser. One time, it at least displayed the messages before it froze, so I was finally able to read the newer posts there.

@Eldarion

I don't know how you concluded that the pulse width of the PWM3 series is 11000 ns, although it is adjustable up to that, and more. I put some scope shots up of a PWM3F on the hydroxy group photos section, and the pulse widths were shown to be under 5000 ns at the outputs.

The energy application of the toroid is similar to the hydroxy application, but it is not exactly the same. Your resistor and scope are not going to behave the same as a hydroxy gas cell stack. In a hydroxy gas application, the energy flows from the secondary and through the cell stack to the ground reference. But whatever your load, a choke (or possibly a high value resistor, have not tried that) is required between the secondary and the HV DC power supply. Having the capacitor in the power supply is ok, IF you HF isolate that supply. With the connections as you are showing, the majority of the flow of energy is going to take the path to ground reference, through your power supply! Note here that ground reference means any mass that has a potential that is or can be referenced to earth ground, so it does not have to be grounded directly in order to soak up power.

I have to take wifey to a dr appt so I have to leave now. i hope this has helped.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the information!  I will pick up a high value choke and try isolating the supply again.

Have you tried the FireFox browser (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/)?  It is about 6 megabytes to download (free, of course ;)), and it is much more stable than Internet Explorer.

Regarding the PWM3E pulse width, I had calculated that via the formula 1.1*R*C, which should be valid for the 556 monstable pulse shaper.   With an R of 1k (the minimum) and a C of 0.01uF, I get 11us (11000ns).  It is possible that the optocoupler might be cutting that value in half due to rise/fall time, as I could not find a datasheet for that chip.

Still, 5000ns makes more sense to me than 500ns!

Thanks,

Eldarion

Bob Boyce

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #191 on: October 12, 2007, 08:13:31 PM »
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the information!  I will pick up a high value choke and try isolating the supply again.

Have you tried the FireFox browser (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/)?  It is about 6 megabytes to download (free, of course ;)), and it is much more stable than Internet Explorer.

Regarding the PWM3E pulse width, I had calculated that via the formula 1.1*R*C, which should be valid for the 556 monstable pulse shaper.   With an R of 1k (the minimum) and a C of 0.01uF, I get 11us (11000ns).  It is possible that the optocoupler might be cutting that value in half due to rise/fall time, as I could not find a datasheet for that chip.

Still, 5000ns makes more sense to me than 500ns!

Thanks,

Eldarion

It must be related to my dialup connection speed at home. Right now I am on a broadband WiFi connection and everything loads perfectly! Yes, tried FireFox at a neighbors and hated every minute of it. It was no faster than IE on dialup, and I didn't care for the interface.

Now I understand where you got the 11000 ns figure. I use that digital optocoupler as a DSP  waveform shaper / filter to clean up the horrible 555 outputs. I can adjust those outputs so narrow that the outputs FETs don't even have time to turn on ;-)

I use the secondary of a big heavy battery charger transformer as a choke in series with the 160 VDC line. All caps are on the power supply side of the choke, none on the toroidal side (except for the DC blocking cap of course).

You do know you are not limited to the 42.8 Khz primary, 21.4 Khz secondary, and 10.7 Khz tertiary frequencies don't you? More power is available at higgher frequency. I just used those because the primary 42.8 Khz is in the region where water responds to the LEM. Please remember that the PWM3 hydroxy core parameters are not going to be exactly the same as the energy core parameters.

Bob

Bob Boyce

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #192 on: November 03, 2007, 06:16:44 PM »
Might be worth looking into these. They may be fast enough to use for energy conversion.

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/RH/RHRD660S.html

Bob

MarkSnoswell

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #193 on: November 04, 2007, 01:12:40 AM »
Might be worth looking into these. They may be fast enough to use for energy conversion.

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/RH/RHRD660S.html

Bob

They look very good -- the best I can find outside expensive SiC Shottky diodes (http://www.cree.com/products/power_docs2.asp).

I have added them to the Parts, Materials and data page here http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3544.new.html#new

Mark.

Bob Boyce

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Re: Bob Boyce TPU thread
« Reply #194 on: November 11, 2007, 03:22:02 PM »
They look very good -- the best I can find outside expensive SiC Shottky diodes (http://www.cree.com/products/power_docs2.asp).

I have added them to the Parts, Materials and data page here http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3544.new.html#new

Mark.

I ordered some of those as samples from Cree, and also bought some of the RHRD660S with my latest parts order.

I sent some germanium devices to Rich for him to test in power conversion and verify my findings. He tested a low powered gremanium transistor that he already had first, and the results were as expected. Used as a rectifier diode, the germanium transistor converted enough of the LEM to TEM, that it was readable as DC on a regular analog meter. He said with that particular transistor, it was the base/emitter junction that worked best..Conversion efficiency will depend greatly on the doping of the actual devices used, so this is going to take a lot of testing to nail down which germanium devices work best, and which junctions (base/emitter or base/collector) work better on those devices. Hopefully we can eventually identify which doping in germanium is required for maximum power conversion. I will be testing these hyperfast silicon devices as well.

Bob