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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: Super God on July 22, 2007, 11:01:06 PM

Title: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on July 22, 2007, 11:01:06 PM
Ok, I have a 1995 Oldsmobile Cutlass I picked up for 150$.  It's my first car and it runs fine and stuff.  I wanted to know if it would be possible to hook up a hydrogen on demand cell and run it straight off hydrogen and oxygen (NO AIR) from the cell.  Assuming the cell outputs enough hydrogen and oxygen, would it be possible to just hook it up and hope for the best?  I don't care about power or anything, it's not a powerful car anyway.  It's a 3.1 liter V6 if that helps.  I hope that 49 1 inch stainless steel tubes will be enough! :D

Anyone with auto experience have advice?
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: mkt3920 on July 29, 2007, 05:28:31 PM
Use Water for Fuel (HHO)

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyqoawWG9vM&mode=related&search=

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu_4CjA2x4I&mode=related&search=

Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9_VYn_CGtU&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on July 29, 2007, 08:37:16 PM
Sweet, once I get a job and earn some money, I'm ordering me some stainless steel tubes and running my car on hydrogen and oxygen. Woohoo!
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: hkyle on July 30, 2007, 04:52:03 AM
Don't be getting to excited buddy. lol
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 01, 2007, 06:38:50 PM
I'm glad to see the creation of this thread. If it didn't exist I was going to create it.

The one concern I had is with regard to adequate HHO to run the engine. After a lengthy discussion with a highly competent auto mechanic, he explained to me that temps within the combustion chamber are controlled on a normal ICE using EGR. My thought is to reroute some or all of the recirculated exhaust gas through the electrolyzer(s) from the bottom up through the plates to A) provide the volume, B) regulate combustion chamber temps, maybe mitigating the need for special engine mods, and C) agitate the cells along with engine vacuum to produce HHO more efficiently.

Not too sure about throttle response though. It may still be best suited for steady state running conditions such as is needed for electric generation. No problem. Just keep batteries charged enough to run electric cars. My dream car? See the Tesla Roadster.

I'll keep everyone posted on my progress. And please join me in sharing your thoughts with lincolninked on his thread at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2837.0.html

Cheers,
ZFF
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on August 02, 2007, 02:08:40 AM
For now I'm gonna buy those tubes turn off the fuel pump and turn it over.  If it runs, yay, if it doesn't I'll just add one in parallel or series.  Whatever works.  Apparently you just run the gas into the intake manifold or whatever and the engine vacuum does the rest.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: keithturtle on August 02, 2007, 02:58:32 AM
ZFF, Archie Blue in New Zealand came up with the idea of bubbling exhaust gas (EG) up thru the bottm of the cell.  I think he used perf plates, though.  I recall a series of three cells, with differing volumes of EG added.   Might be worth the search."archie blue gas"

IronHead speaks of using EG to temper the octane of HHO.   My approach (ain't done it yet) would be to mix EG in the flashback chamber, then feed it to engine intake. 

Adjust ratio till no apparent timing issues arise, then slowly pinch off gasoline flow whilst adding ever-increasing HHO/EG flow to carry load.

It matter not wherever y'all get yer HHO from at this stage; what is important is grasping the dynamics of fuel substitution.

Or at least that's my view from the pond...

Turtle
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 02, 2007, 06:28:57 PM
@Turtle - The only thing I believe I need to do with EGR is to ensure the spent exhaust gas is cooled through a heat exchanger before feeding it to the electrolyzer.

@All - Somewhere in the HV HHO thread IH put up a schematic of the plumbing for HHO into the intake manifold and air duct in front of the butterfly at the plenum. Pretty much the same as shown at Magdrive. I put a hose through the intake pipe, positioned the hose opening facing the butterfly, brought it through the firewall and put a vacuum gauge on it. I figured at wide open throttle and higher RPM there might be enough velocity to see measurable vacuum signal. Nope. If I put my finger over the tube I can barely feel any suction. What this means is, unless you can create a venturi in the intake air stream to create a strong vacuum signal proportional to velocity, just send your HHO to the intake manifold vacuum and be done with it.

If anyone has an idea how to build a simple venturi to create the vacuum I just described, please share.

ZFF
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: IronHead on August 02, 2007, 11:50:44 PM
There is something wrong. Do you have an air filter in the car? Did you put the HHO line between the air filter and the throttle body ? Is you air filter well sealed ? Does you airfilter have any holes in it that might cause 0 vaccum  ? You should have very high vacuum at high acceleration. Diagnostics is very important here . Don't just give up  on something we have already proven without looking for the problem.

Also are the any other vacuum lines in that area , between filter and throttle . if so check out
any check valves that may be failing.

No dont just send your Cell vacuum line to the manifold and be done with it.
When your engine is at high acceleration your manifold vacuum will drop way down.
So you will be producing more HHO at idle then you will in acceleration . Then you drop out of acceleration .Guess what happens if you do this. You back feed HHO through the entire vacuum system and can migrate to the  break booster. This can fail your brakes completely . This is only true if you engine is running correctly . If you have vacuum problems to start with I suggest you solve those problems first !



IronHead



Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: yikes on August 03, 2007, 12:07:11 AM
I had to modify the tube end so that there was an angle facing the throttle body (facing away from the air filter)  like:   /l  .   It worked well so that now there is no foam on top of the solution, it all gets sucked up.  Kinda like a rock in a river creating an eddy.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 03, 2007, 04:01:16 AM
@IH - In the short time that you've known me, have I ever given you the impression that I'm a quitter? I am, however, in need of some ideas and not afraid to put it to the group.

If anything, I routed the tube too perfectly in front of the butterfly, in line with the air flow. I think maybe inserting it more at right angles to the air flow and facing an angled opening downstream as per Yikes may be better. Better still might be to leave my tube the way it is and flare the end or put a tiny funnel in the end, wide end toward the butterfly. The sudden increase in velocity around the lip of the funnel should create a dynamite vacuum signal.

ZFF
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: IronHead on August 03, 2007, 05:57:17 AM
Sorry man I did not mean it to come out like that . I meant more about quiting on the hook up because the outcome was not working  with out  seeing why you had no vacuum where all gasoline cars that run correctly  should have high vac under these conditions .

Again I was not calling you a quitter  . The fact is what you have done for this forum is rather fantastic and I have to thank you for that . The step by step build you are doing has my highest praise .

The  tube must point to the butterfly as shown in the design as well.

Also  the flare idea works very well to increase vacuum along with a slight angular cut .
IronHead
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 04, 2007, 02:55:25 AM
I don't know if you saw my latest youtube video last night but it appears the S-cell generated about 1 LPM @10A. There was still quite a bit of leakage around my original gasket. I'm sealing up the removable lid tonight by gluing a frame to the top lip of the tank with a more pliable gasket, much like the drawing you presented except that the frame hangs over the interior of the tank, not over the exterior edge. Still leaves me room to remove the plate cavity, etc etc etc.

I cannibalized a check valve last night because, with it cut off the way I did, it resembled a mini funnel with an large dimension about the size of a nickel. Stuck that in the tube inside the air duct with the wide end facing the butterfly. It managed to pull about 1" Hg. I would be VERY interested to see reports from others of their measurements taken from just this location, no other plumbing, and exactly how they did it if they can get more than I just did.

To experiment I will be enlarging the size of the funnel to raise velocity even more at the mouth of the funnel (ie drop pressure). I will also be testing various forms of tubes inserted at right angles to the air duct as I have seen elsewhere with the wedge cut facing downstream and see how well THAT works too.

I realize the S-cell is a teaching aid. 1/4" spacing really is too far for lower voltage applications. But is does make it easy to get a good look at what's going on and provides a common platform to compare notes with. Soon I'll be ready for a PWM supply. I'm sure you can point me in the right direction to get me off to a good start.

And just wait until you see the design I'm cooking up for a finished electrolyzer. 3 times the plate surface area, 3 times the circulation velocity (maybe more), 1/6 the leakage current per square inch of plate surface area. Closed circuit cooling. I can't wait to see the numbers when I flip the switch.

Two questions here: Where's a good place to find SS wool? and what size works best?

ZFF
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: IronHead on August 04, 2007, 03:54:53 AM
SS  wool , grocery store . Just pack the bubbler with it, loose but evenly .
Keep up the good work and looking forward to the next builds.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: keithturtle on August 04, 2007, 05:29:05 AM
AKA pot scrubbers.  Also a trip to a machine shop scrap hopper when they're cuttin' stainless.

Turtle the scavenger
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 05, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
Check out this guy's numbers ans see if they make sense to you.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ZRZ_AAIdw
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 05, 2007, 06:07:36 PM
A NEW FINDING! Increased the electrolyte concentration in the test cell to double the conductivity. Whereas last night I needed 75V@10A (750W) to fill 500mL in 45 seconds, today I tested 32V@9.6A (300W) filled 500mL in 60 Seconds! That's double the efficiency!

Conclusion: Increase in conductivity is directly inversely proportional to efficiency.

Hypothesis: Closer plate spacing will drastically increase efficiency by at least the square of the distance, maybe more.

More tests to follow.
ZFF
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: buzneg on August 05, 2007, 07:16:07 PM
I wonder if pumping water between the plates would increase efficiency enough to power the pump, and extra. With my experience it always seems better when closer, it seems the only thing that slows down production is the bubbles in the way.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on August 05, 2007, 11:06:26 PM
I've got a disassembled lawn mower engine to bench test my HHO cell with.  As soon as it can run that efficiently, I'll move to a full car engine.  But in order to walk you must crawl first.  Taking apart a lawn mower engine can be quite fun :D
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: strapped9 on August 06, 2007, 06:15:18 AM
thats a great idea. I cant get rid of the 2nd spark on my 5 hp toro. big boom if you dont rid of that. maybe a cap in the plug wire would burn a spark each time? an auto wouldnt have that though, since its electronic distribution right? good luck. please post the sults.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Draco Rylos on August 07, 2007, 07:46:25 AM
When I watched a video on youtube one day, a video caught my eye. the name of the video is Sending RX7 to Rotary Hell. LOL Funny title, but it got me to thinking about trying to convert a Rotary engine to hydrogen. It may be easier, but it could also be more difficult because of the electronics that newer RX7s and RX8s have on them to precisely control fuel flow.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 07, 2007, 01:21:28 PM
Hey, now that's an interesting idea. I used to own a '73 with the 12A motor, 4bbl carb. One plug fires before TDC, the other at TDC. You could probably drop the first one entirely. The only thing you couldn't do is replace the first plug with an injector. Unlike a 4-stroke that has an intake cycle, every time the rotor approaches the plugs it's in a compression cycle. Retreating from the plugs it's in a power cycle. There's no down time on the combustion side of the chamber. The rotor seals, side and apex, are made of carbon, or at least they were in '73 which may or may not hold up well to HHO.

Just my 2 cents.

ZFF
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Draco Rylos on August 08, 2007, 02:59:40 AM
Yeah ZFF, there's no telling how well the seals and the apex seals may hold up using hydrogen fuel.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: brokensoldier on August 08, 2007, 03:09:46 AM
Does anyone know how accurate this is:

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WarJ.html   (see Part 7)

Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: ZeroFossilFuel on August 08, 2007, 09:11:43 PM
Quick pics of the new cell. Walls are 6" tall, grooves spaced 1/8", plates 0.035", gap 0.09".
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on August 08, 2007, 10:14:55 PM
Corn.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: IronHead on August 08, 2007, 10:48:13 PM
no it wont
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on August 08, 2007, 11:06:13 PM
:o

It appears I have been tricked!  Then do have to make ANY modifications to the engine?  Wow, this is good news for my wallet.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: IronHead on August 08, 2007, 11:14:07 PM
This is only true as long as there is no KOH entering your engine.You must condence KOH and return it to your Cell or water tank .

Check out High Performance water injection , people been doing it since the 50s
Water injection  helps stop detonation  when running Hi Perf  engines with  superchargers or turbochargers.
Also there is alot of water coming from gasoline in the burn process and from the atmosphere going into the intake .
How much water do you see coming out of a cars tailpipe . Alot most of the time.

I would do the SS valves though as they take heat better at the edge of the valve.
This is the only place you see some heat increases with 100% HHO  everything else runs nice and cool. Also remember there are no carbon buildups with HHO to hold heat and burn away underlying metals . And, the water from the HHO burn or combining process has no minerals in it. It is pure water and you will have no mineral deposits from HHO reaction in your engine.

Water the perfect fuel!
IronHead
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on August 08, 2007, 11:19:08 PM
So, would you say it's safe to run an engine on just hho with ss valves?

Alot of people insist on making engine modification, but if it isn't neccessary then to hell with it.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: mikestocks2006 on August 09, 2007, 01:39:45 AM
So, would you say it's safe to run an engine on just hho with ss valves?

Alot of people insist on making engine modification, but if it isn't neccessary then to hell with it.

Hi folks, re: water in engine.
Keep in mind that the combustion byproducts of hydrocarbons (octane-C8H18 and oxygen) are mainly CO2 and H2O
There is also water vapor (humidity in the ambient air and sometimes very high in humid days)
An ICE is already exposed to H20 mostly in vapor form, inside the combustion chamber and also a combination of water vapor and condensing water in the exhaust system. There are also a number of additional chemical compounds produced, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides due to N2 in the atmosphere, other gasoline additives, detergents, and so on.

A more  carefull consideration should be in the area of increased temperatures and/or pressures involved if any, and possible Hydrogen embrittlement

Thanks
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: IronHead on August 09, 2007, 03:08:20 AM
@ "Super God" 
Lets just say I know that it is ok to do so and for many years as well.


@"mikestocks"
Hydrogen embrittlement has only been found in Pure Monoatomic Hydrogen  high pressurized type systems.
Heat has no time to transfer or migrate as the burn time is much to fast, HHO burn hot and fast but  is cooler to run .
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: kewlhead on August 09, 2007, 03:58:01 AM
SuperBAT TVT Metal Treatment Additive and Fuel System Treatment products
are available by calling (800) 891-1188.  This is an old article but a search will still provide some more info  for anyone concearned about water in ther engine.I havent tried but since the topic came thought I'd look a bit.
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: mikestocks2006 on August 09, 2007, 03:59:31 AM
@ "Super God" 
Lets just say I know that it is ok to do so and for many years as well.


@"mikestocks"
Hydrogen embrittlement has only been found in Pure Monoatomic Hydrogen  high pressurized type systems.
Heat has no time to transfer or migrate as the burn time is much to fast, HHO burn hot and fast but  is cooler to run .
Hi Ironhead,
Do you have a link re:"Hydrogen embrittlement has only been found in Pure Monoatomic Hydrogen  high pressurized type systems"
I'm interested in the "only found" remark.
If I recall from the ole materials science courses and also found here:
Hydrogen embrittlement
Of particular concern is a phenomenon unique to hydrogen gas. Because of its small size, H2 can be absorbed into the metallic lattice of steel, where certain impurities such as titanium cause it to dissociate into atomic hydrogen. Atomic hydrogen, in turn, will form anionic compounds around the edges of microcracks and voids, which facilitates their propagation. [3]The results of hydrogen infiltration into steel are shown in the graph below.
 (http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2004/Hydrogen/Images/embrittlement.JPG)
http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2004/Hydrogen/Images/embrittlement.JPG
The yield and fracture stress for a steel sample are shown to decrease with increasing hydrogen concentrations.
Source: Schvachko, V.I.
Hydrogen embrittlement prevents the use of current natural gas pipelines and other vessels from serving as hydrogen conduits, because a special coating may often be needed to prevent structural failure in the long-term from embrittlement.
Sources:

[1] "Support Facilities for Hydrogen Fueled Vehicles Conceptual Design and Cost Analysis Study." California Fuel Cell Partnership.

[2] Professor Frederick Dryer, Princeton University, personal conversation. 15 Nov 2004.

[3] Shvachko, V.I. "Micromechanical Aspects of Reversible Hydrodgen Embrittlement" Materials Science, Vol. 36, No. 4, 2000.



Not only atomic but also molecular Hydrogen has the potential to cause problems. Many refs out there.

Also, what is HHO ? what kind of Hydrogen does it have? Atomic? Molecular? Or?

It?s not clear what the concentration of gas(es) or pressures involved are, but the pressures need to be at least comparable to regular combustion chamber pressures in order to achieve similar engine performance.

Re: burn time,
If I recall correctly, the flame propagation speed for pure hydrogen is faster that that of hydrocarbons, but what is the flame propagation to a full burn of HHO? What else is in the mixture of gases going into the combustion chamber? What is the exact chemical reaction taking place and so on.
The hot pressurized gases are touching the walls and for the same amount of time as the regular octane burn. The time of contact is the same for the same rpm etc.

Anyway it may not be an overwhelming problem in the big picture, but it would be better to have some metrics and tests to confirm.

Just some points to consider in designing the system.

Thanks
Title: Re: Running an internal combustion engine?
Post by: Super God on August 18, 2007, 10:04:22 PM
So, where would the best spot be for running hho into an engine?  The intake manifold?  I was thinking about using that spot.  Hopefully I can turn my car into a hydrogen/gasoline hybrid car.