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Author Topic: Over Unity NOT Achieved!!!  (Read 25215 times)

Offline oouthere

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Over Unity NOT Achieved!!!
« on: July 21, 2007, 10:41:21 PM »
This is a redundant post but I think it is important enough to carry the subject title.  I'm using two rebuilt motors.  The PM is an ancient, high speed (can't remember the rpm but close to 3,600) 7.5hp three phase 9 wire unit.  The alternator is a Baldor 5hp three phase low speed (somewhere close to 1600rpm) 9 wire unit.  The units are coupled at 1:1.

My best non-loaded result for the set-up is:

PM: 5.4 amps @ 121VAC = 653.4 watts

Alternator:  8.7 amps @ 420 VAC = 3,654 watts inside the alternator

The first sucessful test outside of the alternator with o/u is today with these results:

PM: 5.5 amps @ 120VAC = 660 watts in

Alternator:  5.22 amps @ 274 volts = 1430 watts

The load is an old cooktop with all four burners set to maximum.  The tag states 7.6kw @ 240VAC.

Anway....YESSSSS!!!

Rich
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 02:01:35 AM by oouthere »

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Over Unity NOT Achieved!!!
« on: July 21, 2007, 10:41:21 PM »

Offline oouthere

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2007, 11:02:17 PM »
lol, yep an extra "0".  I'll edit that out.

Rich

Offline argona369

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2007, 11:38:25 PM »
.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 04:53:55 AM by argona369 »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2007, 11:38:25 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2007, 11:55:25 PM »
This is a redundant post but I think it is important enough to carry the subject title.  I'm using two rebuilt motors.  The PM is an ancient, high speed (can't remember the rpm but close to 3,600) 7.5hp three phase 9 wire unit.  The alternator is a Baldor 5hp three phase low speed (somewhere close to 1600rpm) 9 wire unit.  The units are coupled at 1:1.

My best non-loaded result for the set-up is:

PM: 5.4 amps @ 121VAC = 653.4 watts

Alternator:  8.7 amps @ 420 VAC = 3,654 watts inside the alternator

The first sucessful test outside of the alternator with o/u is today with these results:

PM: 5.5 amps @ 120VAC = 660 watts in

Alternator:  5.22 amps @ 274 volts = 1430 watts

The load is an old cooktop with all four burners set to maximum.  The tag states 7.6kw @ 240VAC.

Anway....YESSSSS!!!

Rich

Hi Rich,
could you please make a video of this test ?

Many thanks.

For all Rotorverter users,
please document your results with videos and post them here.
I really would like to see such an overunity video
where you can really see input and output power
measurements and driving a real load.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 12:26:29 AM »
Hi Rich,
As I understand it the idea is quite simple in that you use different value capacitors for different RPMs, across the field windings.
 
I have a single phase induction motor in my drill press that I could try to experiment with.
The only thing that puzzles me is that this is such a simple change, why has is not been picked up before?
Also, are you using a three phase supply, or perhaps creating your own 3 phase supply?

Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 12:26:29 AM »
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Offline oouthere

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2007, 12:56:47 AM »

Hi Rich,

Have you tried to hook up the output to the input?
(closing the loop) to try and make it free running?
with a emergency cut out in case it does free run of course,,

Cliff,


Hiya Cliff,

It is not possible because the alternator is being driven nearly twice as fast as it was designed so the output frequency is nearly double as well.

Rich

Offline oouthere

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2007, 01:00:34 AM »
Hi Rich,
could you please make a video of this test ?

Many thanks.

For all Rotorverter users,
please document your results with videos and post them here.
I really would like to see such an overunity video
where you can really see input and output power
measurements and driving a real load.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,  I'll try to get around to that but it will not be this weekend.  My garage is a mess so this is an embarrasing request  ;D  My daughters race motocross and we are off to the track for the rest of the weekend to do practice.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2007, 01:00:34 AM »
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Offline oouthere

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2007, 01:07:14 AM »
Hi Rich,
As I understand it the idea is quite simple in that you use different value capacitors for different RPMs, across the field windings.

Not exactly.  My 3 phase motor has a set rpm to run (with some frequency slippage).  You tune the motor for minimal current draw only, not rpms.
 
I have a single phase induction motor in my drill press that I could try to experiment with.
The only thing that puzzles me is that this is such a simple change, why has is not been picked up before?

I never would have thought of it!!!

Also, are you using a three phase supply, or perhaps creating your own 3 phase supply?

The idea behind the RV is to use a three phase motor 240/480 volt wired at the highest voltage and ran off single phase 120VAC between two of the three phase (1 & 2 in my case).  The cap bank is placed between the hot lead (2) and the other unused lead (3).  I have no idea how to run a single phase motor in RV but they say it can be done.

Rob

Offline wattsup

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2007, 01:21:20 AM »
@mramos

Your well pump (assuming deep well submersible pump) already should have a pump start box with a capacitor already in it. Also depending on the depth of the pump in the well, you may need all the power. When converting a 3ph motor to RV, instead of the motor runnniign on 460V it is running on 120V on two of the phases. This brings down the HP to half or less then the original design spec. So it may not be a good idea to fiddle around with your well pump. Also, well pumps usually run at at 220V.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2007, 01:21:20 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2007, 10:23:12 AM »
This is a redundant post but I think it is important enough to carry the subject title.  I'm using two rebuilt motors.  The PM is an ancient, high speed (can't remember the rpm but close to 3,600) 7.5hp three phase 9 wire unit.  The alternator is a Baldor 5hp three phase low speed (somewhere close to 1600rpm) 9 wire unit.  The units are coupled at 1:1.    My best non-loaded result for the set-up is:
PM: 5.4 amps @ 121VAC = 653.4 watts
Alternator:  8.7 amps @ 420 VAC = 3,654 watts inside the alternator
The first sucessful test outside of the alternator with o/u is today with these results:
PM: 5.5 amps @ 120VAC = 660 watts in
Alternator:  5.22 amps @ 274 volts = 1430 watts
The load is an old cooktop with all four burners set to maximum.  The tag states 7.6kw @ 240VAC.

Anway....YESSSSS!!!

Rich

Hi Rich,

I would like to tell you the followings:
The label/tag on your old cooktop says 7.6kW @ 240VAC.  This means that when you normally use the burners from the grid, the current is 7600Watt/240V=31.66Amper from your 240V AC mains, when all the four burners are fully on, ok?
So I would suggest to check carefully the AC voltage drop across the cooktop terminals to really know how much output power you really have when you insert the cooktop in series with the cap bank at the alternator.

One more thing: Could you estimate your RPM so that you know the resonant frequency of your alternator (and then your PM due to the joint common axis)?  Because if you use measuring instruments for current/voltage checkings that are calibrated for 50 or 60 Hz mains frequency and your resonant output frequency is much different (obviously higher), then you can be misled by your instruments.  You could use oscilloscope for checking the frequency or a digital multimeter with freq measuring capability some friends near you may help you out if you don't have such DVM.

One question: have you considered using your Baldor 5HP as the Prime Mover and the 7.5HP motor as the alternator?  I cannot say if it were better or not but maybe would be worth trying which combination results in less input and more output power (putting the 7.5HP motor to generate would normally involve less copper loss than you have now with the Baldor because the inner resistance of a higher HP motor usually is less than that of a lower HP motor).

Regards
Gyula

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2007, 11:22:06 AM »
As I understand it the idea is quite simple in that you use different value capacitors for different RPMs, across the field windings.

Not exactly.  My 3 phase motor has a set rpm to run (with some frequency slippage).  You tune the motor for minimal current draw only, not rpms.
Yes, same thing really, you start off at zero rpm so you use one value of capacitor, when its up to runnung speed you use a different one to reduce the current required.
I suppose your start and run capacitor could be the same value, so you tune it for the 3600 rpm speed (60 cycles/sec x 60 seconds = 3600rpm), or 3000rpm for 50Hz (UK frequency).

I looked at the circuit diagram off the Panacea website again and rember how it is done.
I think the capacitor creates a second phase across windings 2 and 3, mains input provides the phase across 1 and 2, the only bit missing is a phase across 3 and 1.
I look forward to your video and live test results.

Regards
Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2007, 11:22:06 AM »
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Offline Jason

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2007, 11:54:53 PM »
Hello,

I am a missionary in Mexico. I am starting a community in a small town here and was sent first of all a Newman motor link by a friend. Then I got on this forum and have been reading for the last couple of days. I noticed the comments about the rotoverter having more practical torque and decided I would begin my journey into the unknown. I am oblivious to all the terms and equations and my mind does not even no where to begin. I see a lot of information on this subject but I do not know where to start my project. I would like to power the community on something like the rotoverter. I have 110v lines on the property. Do I need to take a course in electricity or am I out of my league. I am going to build a little newman motor for educational purposes eventually. I will be reading all your discussions, and try to figure out what all the terms you all or using. I hope someone comes out with a dummies version of this technology. Thanks, Jason

Offline oouthere

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Re: Over Unity Achieved!!!
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2007, 02:00:25 AM »
This is a redundant post but I think it is important enough to carry the subject title.  I'm using two rebuilt motors.  The PM is an ancient, high speed (can't remember the rpm but close to 3,600) 7.5hp three phase 9 wire unit.  The alternator is a Baldor 5hp three phase low speed (somewhere close to 1600rpm) 9 wire unit.  The units are coupled at 1:1.    My best non-loaded result for the set-up is:
PM: 5.4 amps @ 121VAC = 653.4 watts
Alternator:  8.7 amps @ 420 VAC = 3,654 watts inside the alternator
The first sucessful test outside of the alternator with o/u is today with these results:
PM: 5.5 amps @ 120VAC = 660 watts in
Alternator:  5.22 amps @ 274 volts = 1430 watts
The load is an old cooktop with all four burners set to maximum.  The tag states 7.6kw @ 240VAC.

Anway....YESSSSS!!!

Rich

Hi Rich,

I would like to tell you the followings:
The label/tag on your old cooktop says 7.6kW @ 240VAC.  This means that when you normally use the burners from the grid, the current is 7600Watt/240V=31.66Amper from your 240V AC mains, when all the four burners are fully on, ok?
So I would suggest to check carefully the AC voltage drop across the cooktop terminals to really know how much output power you really have when you insert the cooktop in series with the cap bank at the alternator.

One more thing: Could you estimate your RPM so that you know the resonant frequency of your alternator (and then your PM due to the joint common axis)?  Because if you use measuring instruments for current/voltage checkings that are calibrated for 50 or 60 Hz mains frequency and your resonant output frequency is much different (obviously higher), then you can be misled by your instruments.  You could use oscilloscope for checking the frequency or a digital multimeter with freq measuring capability some friends near you may help you out if you don't have such DVM.

One question: have you considered using your Baldor 5HP as the Prime Mover and the 7.5HP motor as the alternator?  I cannot say if it were better or not but maybe would be worth trying which combination results in less input and more output power (putting the 7.5HP motor to generate would normally involve less copper loss than you have now with the Baldor because the inner resistance of a higher HP motor usually is less than that of a lower HP motor).

Regards
Gyula

Gyula,

I was so excited by just seeing my measurements that inaccuracies on the DVM due to frequency changes never crossed my mind.

Guys, I have to apolojize...this is not over unity.  The cooktop has eyes that you cannot see (cast iron covers), yes they were getting hot.  But I decided to place two-250 watts heat lamps in series so I could at least look for bulb brightness....not even close to standard brightness out of the wall.  I then placed a single 120VAC/250 watt heat bulb as the load.....not even close.

I did measure correctly but apparently these things have to be measured with an o'scope and not a DVM that is frequency sensitive. 

The best guess on rpms is 3,200 to 3,300.  But since the alternator is a low speed motor it cannot be used to drive the 7.5hp.


 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Rich

Offline oouthere

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Re: Over Unity NOT Achieved!!!
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2007, 03:45:05 AM »
I went and looked at many of the videos including the Bellerians video....I can do anything they are showing with the exception of the 1000watt bulb.  But, the 1000 watt bulb would be to bright to video without some sort of protection of the camera and is being fed from about 1/2 the power it would normally require..  IMO, there are many people just as myself that are making faulty measurements using only DVMs.  The 15hp RV replication video was one of the most convincing that this is the case.  You have a 15hp RV, do not show your input power and then show it powering two HUGE 60 watt bulbs.....yep....overunity.  But the good side is, his 60 watt bulbs are brighter than the 1000watt bulb.

Rich

Offline wattsup

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Re: Over Unity NOT Achieved!!!
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2007, 01:32:37 PM »
@oouthere

I don't get it at all.

Volts are volts regardless of frequency. A generator turning at 3600 rpm will be turning at 60hz and produce X volts at A amps. If it turns at 3000 rpm it will be at 50 hz and produce Y volts at B amps. Regardless of the above X x A and Y x B = watts. Watts are watts. So watts the problem? (Pardon the pun.) Hey I could even ask "wattsup". (Always wanted to say that.)

When you put your load onto the caps, you check the voltage at the connection point to get your voltage and you put your ammeter onto the same wire to get the amps. So what does it say?

Use of the 1000 watt bulb is OK because it is more than you think the generator will produce. This enables you to pull the maximum draw from the generator while you measure the voltage and amperage. Seems perfectly valid to me. Who cares if the burners are not hot enough, load is load. The burners could have a high initial current requirement, but it is still a load.

Also, frequency has no relation to your hand held meter. It does not care about the frequency. When I put my meter on my TPU and blast it with 5 small VAC at 150K hz, and I measure 3 vdc out, I don't care about the frequency. I'm getting 3 vdc. Definitely not OU. lol

Also, if the alternator is rated to run on 230/460, it should be wired at the 230. PM wired to highest, alternator wired to lowest voltage.

Is there an official EEer in the house!!!!
We need arbitration here!!!!

Quick. I want my two eggs sunny side up. Keep those burners going!


 

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