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Author Topic: Self Charging Leyden  (Read 27590 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2007, 06:02:04 PM »
>"If the ink held a positive charge which should be the same as
as a superimposed charge over the original corona treatment
negative charge, then why was the interior so positively charged?"

This is completely wrong. the entire reason they USE the corona treatment is because the mettalic particles have an OPPOSITE charge and are ATTRACTED to the ions (temporary charging the bottles surface)

this NEGATIVE charge is what is inducing the POSITIVE charge inside the bottle.

this CANNOT happen any other way.
if it were the way you are trying to say it is, the charge inside the bottle would be nagative.

when the top of the bottles were opened the spark jumped from the neck to the liquid (or vise versa depending on you perspective of the charge imbalance) meaning the charge had to travel from the underlayer of ink across the surface of the bottle to the neck region where it jumped through the air. For this to occur, yes the air on the surface of the bottle (when charged) was partially "ionized/plazma gas". this occurs any time there is a charge imbalance and free moving air around the charged object. this layer of charged air is a result of the EMF created by the charge and is infinitely thin at very small charge levels and grows with the intensity of the charge.
The charge doesnt travel in the insulator, it travels ON the insulator.  What occurs inside the insulator is more similar to solid-state electronics than static electric, but is a result of the static charge imbalance.

the outside of the bottle/capacitor DID in fact measure a charge, the portion of the bottle that did NOT, was the insulative outer layer of the ink. (possibly caused from oxidation, or as you inferred earlier "ionic platic"?)


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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2007, 06:02:04 PM »

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2007, 12:44:47 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:01:52 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2007, 04:13:55 AM »
>"Have you had a chance to  perform those experiments you authoritively talked about?"

ive done the experiments with the baloons and plastic combs several times with the kids.

as far as the pvc goes, if your pipe is acting in a manner inconsistent with what i proposed then you are doing something, i.e.- holding he pipe with your hands ? that is allowing the charge to equalize with your body thus not shocking you, this is why i specifically stated to have SOMEONE else charge the pipe.

We used to shock each other with the (non-rubbed) ends of our pvc potato-guns in college, so i know the charge travels to the opposite end of the pipe. just as is does on the baloon-surface and all over the entire comb.

Now lets get back to this Corona Treatment. Think about this - a "negative" charge applied to the surface of the bottle would REPEL negatively charged metallic particles would it not? This would defeat the purpose of using it to apply the ink to the bottle. The charge applied to the bottle during painting - was POSITIVE. It does not work any other way.

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2007, 04:13:55 AM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2007, 05:17:23 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:02:29 PM by argona369 »

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2007, 07:21:43 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:02:58 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2007, 07:21:43 PM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2007, 12:33:35 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:03:36 PM by argona369 »

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2007, 06:44:57 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:04:07 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2007, 06:44:57 PM »
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Offline Caractacus

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2007, 12:48:38 AM »
We seem to have wandered off the original simple question - Can a high voltage capacitor 'self charge'?

My experience is yes, they can. I leave all of my good caps 'strapped' with an aluminium shorting bar.
There is much written on the matter. Be it dust particles migrating charge or whatever - the simple answer is that a GOOD capacitor will accumulate charge.
Leyden jars are rarely thought of as a good capacitor - they have a lossy dielectric that allows charge to bleed away. The answer then is strictly - NO. Not a Leyden jar - but a high quality HV cap will accumulate charge.
Just my 2 cents..

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2007, 04:05:40 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:04:44 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2007, 04:05:40 AM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2007, 02:45:32 PM »
Sorry? We're talking about the "self-charging" Leyden jars right?
Leyden jars by definition ARE capacitors.
So if it is really a Leyden jar, then it must be a capacitor.

If it is not actually a Leyden jar at all, then what is it?

As far as I know the Testatica Leyden jars are exactly that: simple, primitive, but effective capacitors.

The use of electret materials in the Testatica has long been suggested, but a possible mode of operation without electret can be worked out as well.
As long as we're talking about electrets, I would like to point out the substantial difference between an electret and a corona triode.
You speak of them as if they are nearly the same thing. A triode is fundamentally different from an electret.
And the remark that the wax type electrets lose their polarity or may switch them within a few days is not really truthful either...
The original Carnauba wax electret for example retained its polarity and electret effect for years before losing it.

But to my knowledge the Testatica uses a Wimshurst-type electrostatic generator which both ionises the surrounding air and seperates charges, and it uses periodic discharges through a 'valve' which acts as a rectifyer, along with the principles of the electrostatic motor to keep it spinning, while at the same time electrostatic attraction and electron cascade effects absorb charges from the ionised air in different parts of the device such as the metal mesh 'capacitors' and the pulsed magnet+capacitor "cacade generator".
It does not necessarily need electrets...

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2007, 05:24:19 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:05:19 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2007, 05:24:19 PM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2007, 05:50:25 PM »
>Sorry? We're talking about the "self-charging" Leyden jars right?

no.

Oh? Must have been mislead by the topic title then... ;)

Quote
>substantial difference between an electret and a corona triode.
>You speak of them as if they are nearly the same thing

You can?t read? Triode to form electret
My, my, grumpy are we?
Yes I can read and I know my electrical components and their functions.

"triode to form electret" makes as much sense as "transistor to make capacitor", which is very little.
The "corona triode" was mentioned in respect to generating ions. What that has to do with an electret remains unclear to me...
Unless you mean to say that ions can be produced by both... but that still does not make the triode into an electret.
For your information, as you seem to be somewhat confused:
Quote
Electret (formed of elektr- from "electricity" and -et from "magnet") is a dielectric material that has a quasi-permanent electric charge or dipole polarisation. An electret generates internal and external electric fields, and is the electrostatic equivalent of a permanent magnet.
Ergo one piece of dielectric material that maintains a charge on its surface.
Quote
A triode is an electronic device having three active electrodes. The term most commonly applies to a vacuum tube (or valve in British English) with three elements: the filament or cathode, the grid, and the plate or anode. The triode vacuum tube was the first electrical amplification device.
Ergo a construction in which applied charge stimulates electron emission between anode and cathode.

And if you still insist I don't understand what you wrote, then why don't you explain what you mean?
Clearly, a triode is NOT an electret, nor do you need a triode to make an electret.

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2007, 06:06:18 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:06:46 PM by argona369 »

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2007, 06:12:32 PM »
>Oh? Must have been mislead by the topic title then...

I give up on this thread.
Its gotten muddled, confused, misunderstood and off topic.
Harti, could you delete it.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:53:55 PM by argona369 »

Offline crazyman

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2007, 08:11:11 AM »
Its for the best i think.
You wouldn?t want these retards getting a hold of a new energy source would you?
Koen1 would undoubtedly use free energy for the dark and crazy side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZBevXohCI

 

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