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Author Topic: Self Charging Leyden  (Read 27591 times)

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2007, 11:01:10 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:58:07 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2007, 11:01:10 PM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 12:15:14 AM »
>There is a difference between: direct contact induction (which is actually charge >migration/conduction - at a high resistance
Sorry again, there?s no such thing.

>Please check these pages out on atmospheric electricity.

OK - Charge a large capacitor (or layden jar) then trickle that off onto a smaller capacitor through say a 100Mohm, resistor.

it will take some time but the smaller capacitor will chage, this is exactly what happens when you connect 2 charged objects at at high restance. - grounding the container full of saltwater created a path of lower resistance and the charge traveled from the ink (trapped under the atmoshperically plated layer) into the bucket and off to ground.

as for the -/+ im sorry  im an american, we label ours backwards here, our electrons are drawn traveling from positive to negative. its purely conceptual and bears no difference on the actua process, as the charges are equal and opposite, in a circuit it all functions the same.

The plastic is not a dielectric - but because its composed of several different types of atoms, there is a conbination of atoms with electrons in their outer shell and atoms that could accept electrons. they are dispursed throughout the plastic and create whats called the break-down voltage of the plastic material.
At a certain voltage the plastic becomes a conductor - HOWEVER - copposing charges induced in this manner
create a neutral zone, as described in my earlier post, that pevents the plastic from electrically "breaking-down", and the charges can achieve much higher voltages without traveling through the plastic.



the "ions" from the corona treatment were temporary and dissipated shortly after the ink was applied, probably before hte ink even dried.  however as the metallic particles in the ink dried, ther remained alligned as   if under effect of the treatment, and as thus, maintain the charge that accumulated during the process.


as for a charge traveling across the outside of an insulator - an isolated insulator (meaning there is no path fo the charge to leave its surface) will keep the charge on its surface. Now this charge  will spread itself across the entire surface of the object. i.e - rub a baloon on your head and the ENTIRE baloon becomes charged, NOT just the part that touched your hair - you can then pick up pieces of paper with the OTHER side of the baloon.

if you are holding the baloon that charge is traveling from the baloon into your body, and eventually helps to balance out part of the opposite charge you applied to your hair.

Another example to prove that charges move across a conductor is to charge one end of a plastic comb.
then put salt+pepper on a plate.  you can clearly see that the opposite end of the combs is also charged.

This holds true for the plastic on the capacitor-bottle as well, the charge imbalance existed not only inside the bottle, but equally and oppositely on the outside of the bottle  - NOT the outside of the printed ink, i believe to be because of a secondary insulating layer on the outer exterior of the ink.

and ions move to wherever their opposite charge is (if they are in close enough proximity ot be affected by it)
otherwise they evenly distribute themselves across the surface of an insulator.  If the object is a conductor then they spread throughout the entire mass inside and out.  though once they are distributed, the ions remain motionless UNTIL a path to an opposing charge is set up.
maybe "move" is the wrong term, they distribute themselves across the surface.

you can test this by measuring the charge density at different areas across the surface of the baloon you charged up a min ago. 


as for the induction we are interested in (non-contact induction) this can be tested by charging one layden jar,
then placing it in very close proximity to another layden jar.  the first will actually charge the second, relinquishing (about half) of the charge it imparted onto the other jar, the other half   also to note that the second jar is charged of opposite polarity.

This is called a charge amplifying system, because the net charge after the induction time is (at max) 50% greater the charge given up to "fill" the second layden jar. The theory behind this described it as "giving back" half of what it took, through the establishment of the opposing EMF's on a ramp scale function, a lot of that got into flux line physics that are beyond my understanding, so i had to take it at face value. But i had observed one jar charging the other in this fashion. I dont have accurate enough testing equipment to measure the charge densities of a layden jar (and im sure my layden jar construction isn't ideal or perfect) so i really dont know if there is truly a gain in charge as described, or an actuall loss of charge as one would assume in this type of process.  But the jar does charge through induction - and will hold the charge until a path is established to the interior of the jar.

In the example of a Van-Degraff with plastic sphere around it - Toy seen museums and whatnot
 Placing you hand will attract the charge (that you claim doesnt move) to the interior surface of the sphere, and it will actually travel long that surface attempting to reach your body (which is has a diffierent charge density and/or polarity).


STILL don't think that charges can move across an insulator? most people would be convinced by three working experiments, but i'll give you a 4th for posterity.

Take you a piece of PVC pipe, drill a hole in one end, and hang it from a tree with a piece of non-conducting string, like fishing-line or something.

then have someone ELSE take a cloth (wool or possibly silk, animal fur) wrap it around the pipe near the bottom end and rub it up and down, tell them don't go up past 1/4 of the pipe, so they dont physically put any ions onto the upper portion, and charge the heck out of the pipe.

then walk over and touch the top of the pipe with your Tongue. Repeat this step several times if you need more convincing.



Now, once they establish a uniform field (are evenly dispursed) across the surface of the insulator (or throughout the conductor) they remain "motionless" or rather in a state of potential motion.  <<--- THIS is what is often refered to when they describe the charges as "motionless". HOWEVER  they DO move when the conditions allow them to as you have seen by performing the above 3 (or 4 if you're just dense) experiments.


Offline crazyman

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2007, 01:12:24 AM »

Burrrrkkkkk?
Lol. Thanks, that made my day!



as for the -/+ im sorry  im an american, we label ours backwards here,

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2007, 01:12:24 AM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 04:00:14 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:58:43 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 04:17:43 AM »
can you not read, i said i AM an american.

and i didnt slur anything.

i gave you FOUR examples to prove what i was saying if you are not willing to perform the experiments yourself, then thats your thing,

but to sit here and proclaim that "charges dont move" is absurd, whenever there is an imbalance the charges WILL  and DO move (unles they are restricted from doing so).

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 04:17:43 AM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 05:12:38 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:59:18 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 07:04:02 AM »
technician telling an engineer the water in the pipe runs form the sewer into the tower above.. im not going to argue about that... its pointless and has no effect on our discussion.

the Charge moves from + to - as does the spark.
you want to say the "ions" run the other way thats fine, flip all your polarites around and we have the same scenario.

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 07:04:02 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 07:10:02 AM »
when you ionize a surface to apply a metallic ink/paint its the same thing as hooking two alligator clips to a piece of metal and aplying a charge. if you were able to somehow isolate that metal (diodes maybe?) the metal will hold that charge.

thats as simple as i can make it

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 08:23:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:59:52 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 08:23:00 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 09:53:23 PM »
yes that is a perfect explaination of conventional vs electron flow, as you see the only difference between the 2 is purely conceptual, labeling them backwards presents the exact same scenario. So to go back and forth over which way to label them is like the chicken/egg thing, but its good that we have identified this conceptual difference, as we were viewing the process in reverse form one another, drawing much confusion.


The measurements taken of charged object Neglect the time period during which the object is accumulating its charge. - as you see in the diagrams the charges are evenly dispursed. - However it says nothing about the time frame during charging, during which the charge is actually relocating itself around the surface of the material.

All they are looking at is the time AFTER charging, when the charge has nowhere to go, and is thus imobile.

If you examine the object WHILE it is charging, things are a bit different.

the charge does not apply itself instantly and evenly dispursed around the surface, form one point of contact. it has to move to get that way. plain and simple. you can even measure this movement by examining the lines of force as the object is charging.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 10:15:02 PM »
"Admittedly, I have, for the sake of the argument, made this statement slightly too strong. There is one exception: If you have a conductor, negatively charged, and the conductor is connected to ground by a metallic wire, then the excess of electrons will bleed away through the wire."  - quoted from Mr. Static page

This is a perfect explaination of the salt-water discharging process they used on the bottles - which coincidently was the only way they found to achieve the resired results as the actual charge was isolated under the dried ink and not subject to dissipation into the air.

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 10:15:02 PM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2007, 03:14:32 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:00:29 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 03:24:57 AM »
it is possible, i believe, that oxidation (or a form thereof) could have created an insulating layer on the outside of the metalic ink, which would not be present between the ink and the bottle itself.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2007, 03:25:55 AM »
meaning that a charge would have a path of travel between bottle and ink

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2007, 05:37:05 AM »

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« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 07:01:10 PM by argona369 »

 

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