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Author Topic: Self Charging Leyden  (Read 27256 times)

Offline argona369

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Self Charging Leyden
« on: July 02, 2007, 09:02:23 PM »
Deleted, due to no interest
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 05:24:11 AM by argona369 »

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Self Charging Leyden
« on: July 02, 2007, 09:02:23 PM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 04:05:50 AM »
if you had a series of self-charging layden jars (i.e. - capacitors that charge themselves without any energy input into the system - posibly extracting it from the environment on its own) then you would essentially have an unlimited powersource.

The lack of interest may come from the logistics of such an attempt. Possibly these jars are too large for the ammount of power? or perhaps too difficult to reproduce?

If you have reproducable instructions i would love to give this one a try.

If it proves valid i cna add it to my collection of self-charging caacitor set-ups

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 05:51:52 AM »

The ?Self charging leyden? is in regards to this page,
http://www.esdjournal.com/static/shower/shower.html

« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:55:27 PM by argona369 »

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 05:51:52 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 08:00:17 AM »
The metallic-ink was iionized at the time of spraying onto the bottle. it held this (+) charge (until the soaking in salt water) This problem has been solved in the printing industry, by using materials that dont hold much charge.


this ionization must have been charging the electrolytic fluid in the bottle,
this charge would be induced at a certain time-constant dependant upon the ammount of charged particles (mol count) of the ink on the outside of the botle, and the ammount of charge the ink molecules were capable of holding.

its important to note that the phonomena occuring here is atmospheric induction.

i know it sounds backwards, but the outside of the bottle actually holds a positive charge, which induces an equal but opposite negative charge in the shampoo. this powerful negative charge (being isolated inside the bottle) will attract a spark from anything positively charged that comes within a certain range of the fluid. (opening, hole at top near the neck).

also, the human body can hold a very large charge, which can "feed" the spark.

i think the real question is: how many times would the bottle need to be charged/discharged before all of hte ionization in the paint its balanced out by electric discharge?

i think what this is, is some of the energy from the ionization process charged the paint with a + on the outside of the bottle. and this charge was slowly dissipated by inductive-capaticance.






Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 09:48:47 PM »
G'day all,

Sorry guys, the construction of the Leyden jar is irrelevant. You can use a milk bottle filled with iron filings and wrap the outside with aluminium foil.

The Leyden jar is NOT self charging. The charge is provided by the shower!

For an explanation of the physics involved look up Kelvin Generator, it will show you how this happens.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 09:48:47 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 10:33:47 PM »
i've examined the shower scenerio, that was actually my first thought, but upon closer analysis of whats happening with the flowing water, (even if the botle was palaced directly under the shower-stream) is not consistent with the observed phenomena concerning ionized-metallic ink/paint. this problem was surfaced several times in the packaging industry and there are very nice methods in place for dealing with it. which is why we dont have products shocking us all the time.

the energy came from the applying of the paint, and it charges the conductor inside the bottle (the shampoo).
This explains why after several discharged the "self-charging" action stops.

also the exact ammount of carge can be calculated, by the time it takes for x-ammount of oppositely charged electrolyte sollution to balance out the charge of the bottle. thats a rough way of figuring the numbers AFTER the problem occurs, but more importantly this same charge can be calculated by the mol count of the metalic ink/paint and its ability to hold a charge. This will give you a more accurate measurement, partly becaus ethe charging force (i.e. the ionization-printing process) is much more powerful than the charge density of the metalic ink/paint.  So it can be known how much charge the ink can hold at maximum. and by measuring the charge from each spark, you could estimate the number of times the shampoo-capacitor will spark after opening closing (with a constant induction-time in between discharges) before the energy is depleted and it becomes a normal shampo bottle.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 11:26:31 PM »
G'day Smokey and all,

Thanks for elucidating what seems to be a reasonable scenario, perhaps my analysis was a bit hasty.  :-)

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 11:26:31 PM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2007, 02:45:48 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:56:08 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2007, 04:34:42 AM »
@argona

ok, ill try to put this into a language that might come across more understandable....

to apply the ink in uniform fashion the apply a charge to the bottle itself, which attracts the paint/ink to the bottle
this charge may may not be balanced out by the metallic ink particles, leaving a net imbalance of charge on the outside of the bottle.

this charge inbalance induces a charge inside the bottle, equal but opposite.
during this process, a layer forms roughly in the center of the plastic wall seperating the two charged areas.
this layer starts off being slightly conductive (though it is an insulator) as the charge imbalace is creating an equal and opposite charge on he other side of the plastic, once this charge imbalance reaches a certain point, the net charge passing through the bottle becomes 0 in the very center, then this "net 0" area will increase in width as the charges on both sides become greater (they amplify each other to some extent because the charge inside the bottle is electrically isolated). The best way i can describe this action, is to compare it to the semiconductor in a PV-cell.  Except in this case, the electrons are not comming from photon-refraction, but rather from the "ionized" metellic particles. Over time the charge in the metallic particles passes "through" the bottle to the inside, balancing out the charges, and reducing the overall charge of the system.

As for the charge disipating into the air around the bottle - this would only take place in certain conditions
i.e. - similar to the conditions of the bottle sitting in a saline-sollution.
that is to say that the charge induced inside the bottle ("holes") attempt to attract the electrons on the outer surface of the bottle, as the negative charge inside tte bottle gets larger, it will (in most conditions) actually attract more electrons from the air - but this is temporary as when the bottle Discharges these electrons flow through the circuit across the spark gap.

hope that makes more sense.

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2007, 04:34:42 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2007, 05:32:52 AM »
G'day Smokey and all,

Easy to check Smokey, just dunk the bottle in salt water and see if the effect disappears.

Hans von Lieven

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2007, 06:04:07 AM »
that was actually done in the above video, to neutralize the bottles and enable the manufacturer to still use them.

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2007, 06:04:07 AM »
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Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2007, 05:24:30 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:56:41 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2007, 04:27:49 AM »
?The exterior of the bottles showed no electrostatic voltage except near the neck of the bottle where the metallic ink was absent.?

------when i say the "outside" of the bottle, i mean physically located on the other side of the plastic bottle than is hte Inside.

------now, wether the charged exists on the very exterior surface, or under the ink (which may be more accurate) is really irrelevant.



"It was discovered experimentally that the charge on the bottles could be removed permanently by soaking the bottles in a grounded metal container filled with salt water (1% NaCI). After 24 hours in the salt water, the bottles could be rinsed, dried and filled with shampoo and the discharge problem eliminated. ?

"This to me shows that conduction (not induction) allowed charge migration to drain the
Trapped charge."

--- this may seem that way, but in actually - due to the polarity of the charges the container had to be grounded to allow the charge on the exterior of the bottle (capacitor) to dissipate. It is apparent (though this is just my opinion) that the charge is insulated on the exterior surface of the paint/ink possibly because of the tempering of heating process used to dry it - which is not mentioned in the article.

Remeber now - that electrostatic charges will travel on the exterior surface of an insulator - this being the plastic bottle - which could explain the charge at the neck, where the secondary insulator  (heat-dried ink) was not present.

----The "draining"  process utilized both conduction and induction (charge UN-seperation) to neutralize the bottles.



"And if there was it should have been negative not positive."

 The original charge was Positive, causing the paint/ink applied to the bottle to take on a Negative charge - partly because of the electron-structure of the atoms (which is WHY they ionize the bottle to begin with), and partly because of induction aplifying this effect.  This induces a positive charge inside the bottle. sorry if i got the two charges +/- mixed around on you during my earlier posts.


"This part is interesting in that it showa the plate (ink) was isolative and insulative.
And totally blocked the trapped charge from passing through. Leaving in effect
a isolated pole with no corresponding ?other pole? through induction."

-- Yes this would seem to be the case, although it has not been fully substantiated in this particular case, there are other instances where the outer surface of the ink can become insulative - i.e: as i described above.


----HOW do i know the charge is nagative on the outside of the bottle? (assuming we didnt know the original charge as positive)

---  If the ink-charge were positive - 1) this phoenomena would not occur, due to the positive charge in air.
and 2) if it were positive people would get shocked by touching the neck of the bottle NOT when they actually opened it.

Offline argona369

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2007, 03:51:05 PM »
deleted

« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:57:19 PM by argona369 »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Self Charging Leyden
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2007, 07:07:46 PM »
induction can work in either direction depending on the circumstances, and the relative charges of the other materials involved.


an example::

+   ||   -

the + charge wants to go towards the - (electrons attracted to the holes on the other side). This intensifies the EMF directly nearest the bottle, causing the neutral (0) charge zone to expand, further preventing the + to travel to the -

+    |     |    -

 During this process some electrons from the + side are taken in by the plastic to fill some holes on the - side, this will occur as long as the EMF is increasing - basically as long as there is a supply of electrons flowing into (or in this case trapped inside) the + side building up a charge and trying to cross over the barrier into the - side.
the plastic possesses both electrons and "holes" to some extent, and eas the electrons travel through the plastic this is balanced out (starting in the center and expanding outwards towards each wall) thus forming a zeutral zone where very few electrons (or holes depending on your perspective) can pass through. This area gets thicker over time as the induction takes place.
This stops occuring once the EMF builds enough strength to widen the neutral-zone in the plastic so great that it prevents the electrons from traveling through. This is commonly refered to as the Depletion Region (describing the charge depletion that occurs there as the EMF builds up on both sides of the insulator).

The paint/ink application process utilizes the molecular negativity of the metal particles, to attract them onto the surface of the bottle, for an even coat, similar to how they paint cars. the metal, being alreayd somewhat negative, takes on a greater negative charge (the ionization on the surface of hte plastic is temporary, while the metal holds the charge indefinately until it is "release")

Also, nothing is 100% insulator, everything conducts to some degree.  Static charges built up on the surface of an insulator will travel across that surface to create an (almost) even charge distribution. When the object is discharged it will travel again from the entire surface - to the point of discharge and onto the object which has a greater (and opposite) static-electric potential. If you dont think charges travel across the surface of an insulator - pick an insulator of your choice and find a material of opposite potential [ triboelectric series ] and test this by creating a charge on one side of the insulator and discharging it from the other side.

There is a  difference between: direct contact induction (which is actually  charge migration/conduction - at a high resistance) and Non-contact induction:::  When the charge does not have a path of travel, but still "feels" the influence of the opposing charge - it induces a charge of opposite polarity on the other side of the barrier, which in effect makes the other charge become as strong as itself (but opposite).  This is important to note because when the two objects are then allowed to discharge to one another (after the proper induction-time factor), the charges will balance each other out to 0 leavint both materials electro-statically neutral.

[note: the metal particles maintain some degree of charge after the bottle discharges, hinting that the charge in the particles may be isolated, similar to electromagnetism, the (isolated) metal can be staticaly charged in a "permanent" sense. allowing for multiple induction chargings on the capacitive system it is adhered to.


Direct contact induction (partial-conduction) - one substance has a static charge that is different fom the other substance, and when in contact- this charge slowly dissipates into the other substance, until the charge is balanced or the other substance cannot take on any more charge (the materials physical properties determine the charge capacity, and the time it takes for this to occur).
 
Non-contact induces Opposite polarity,  Contact induces Like polarity. I know its a confusing process, and all of the factors in this particular case with the shamoo botles are not absolutely known. Therefore much of this scenerio is subject to speculation.


In that time period the most common metals used for this type of printing were nanoparticles of silver, gold, copper, brass, and platnum,. ALL of which are on the negative end of the triboelectric series. making it difficult to impart a positive-sustained charge onto these metals. their atomic structure will over time make them negative again. So it seems that the ink should have had a negative charge, and that this charge was most likely located in the metallic particles nearest the exterior surface of the bottle, (under the ink)



 

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