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Author Topic: Talking about phase...  (Read 69826 times)

MarkSnoswell

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2007, 06:47:01 PM »
...
The "second harmonic component" seems to line up with your idea of using x, 2x, x harmonics. Can the effect still work if all three frequencies are the same and just phase shifted?

No. In principal -- 3 in phase signals in 3 non-linked coils just vectorially add to a single component. You need independant control of pulse timing and the right coil design... but this is all based on work I have done simulating spinors. This work seems to fit SM and other devices better than any other theory I have seen but thats no guarantee that its right. Right now I am trying to extend my spinor generation software (a plugin within 3ds max) so I can search for higher order frequency relationships. I expect that exact phase timings will depend on the physical relationship of the coils -- there will also be different timings (harmonics) you can drive at given a single physical setup.

What is certain is that three independant components are required to create spinors. There is a huge range of physical ways to generate these components. There is also a corresponding large range of potential signal sets to create different spinors. As SM said -- start with one drive and then just vary the second component looking for maximum output... and then add the third and itterate to improve. After you have a set of timings that work then you can start to experiment with resonant feedback.

hm... if I get a chance over the next few days I'll put up an animation that makes this all clearer.

Mark.

PS. In some ways SM's TPU designs are sloppy -- at a guess about 10 years behind a competive technology. Although interesting effects seem easy to get *precise* physical designs should result in even more suprising effects. Whatever people make they should strive for very neat construction and be aware of small design changes that influence the output. As a hint look at Randal Mills work with generating Hydrinos and ask yourself how a low energy (reduced spin) electron from a hydrino would behave as a charge carrier in a wire.

MeggerMan

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2007, 11:05:12 PM »
Hi Mark,
RE: spinor_--_electrical_coil_analouge_-_45deg_helicies.jpg
Does this show 4 conical shaped vorticies of magnetic field?

Also this test coil:
http://marksnoswell.cgsociety.org/gallery/329928
This is a slightly different way from what is currently being looked at.
This is clever in that the green and yellow control coils have 1 turn vertically and 2 turns horizontally.
The red coil seems to be twisted in some way but I have no idea how you would wind it like that.

I have some ideas on getting on getting a variable duty cycle.
If my calculations are correct:
50% at 200kHz = 2.5 uSec.
But if the duty cycle is exceedingly small, say 0.5 % at 200kHz then your pulse width will be 25 ns, very short pulse. So short, that the mosfet driver and mosfet may not be able to keep up, given the rise and fall times for the components we have been looking at.
Perhaps mosfets are out and high speed transistors are in.
Can valves switch at these speeds?
So we have a physical limit on pulse width for the parts people are using, can you give an indication on the duty cycle required?

With your simulation, do the 4 x magnetic vorticies only appear when you have 3 frequencies in place?
Is the coil arrangement for the simulation as per your "spin half test coil" ?

Thank you for a new insight into what is happening with the TPU, I hope we can attack this from a new angle.
Your simulations certainly look as if they can at least prove the vortex idea.

Regards
Rob


giantkiller

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2007, 01:22:46 AM »
Hi Mark,
RE: spinor_--_electrical_coil_analouge_-_45deg_helicies.jpg
Does this show 4 conical shaped vorticies of magnetic field?

Also this test coil:
http://marksnoswell.cgsociety.org/gallery/329928
This is a slightly different way from what is currently being looked at.
This is clever in that the green and yellow control coils have 1 turn vertically and 2 turns horizontally.
The red coil seems to be twisted in some way but I have no idea how you would wind it like that.

I have some ideas on getting on getting a variable duty cycle.
If my calculations are correct:
50% at 200kHz = 2.5 uSec.
But if the duty cycle is exceedingly small, say 0.5 % at 200kHz then your pulse width will be 25 ns, very short pulse. So short, that the mosfet driver and mosfet may not be able to keep up, given the rise and fall times for the components we have been looking at.
Perhaps mosfets are out and high speed transistors are in.
Can valves switch at these speeds?
So we have a physical limit on pulse width for the parts people are using, can you give an indication on the duty cycle required?

With your simulation, do the 4 x magnetic vorticies only appear when you have 3 frequencies in place?
Is the coil arrangement for the simulation as per your "spin half test coil" ?

Thank you for a new insight into what is happening with the TPU, I hope we can attack this from a new angle.
Your simulations certainly look as if they can at least prove the vortex idea.

Regards
Rob



It is wound very much like the mobius toroid. http://www.littlemountainsmudge.com/mobiuscontinuosknot.htm
Also there is no copper in the wires. It was done with 3dmax. The builders all concur: simulations and graphics don't cut it.
But they make great training materials and presentations to get the investigator up to speed.

--giantkiller. Not slammin', just jammin'.

MarkSnoswell

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2007, 07:26:27 AM »
Hi,
     If I am on the right track with the spinor resonance then phase, pulse timing and coil configurations wont quite be what you expect -- that doesnt mean they will be complicated, but not what classical intuition would lead you to expect. Simple experimentation is called for...

I won?t have time to do experimental work on this project for a few months. I have some other projects to finish, an overseas trip and an office to move first.

 If anyone is interested this is exactly how I will start. I?m giving instructions here so that others can try this if they wish. No guarantees -- this is just what I plan to do based on every bit of practical, hearsay and theoretical information I have to hand.

Construction:

1.   Starting with a single collector coil and primary. I would use some heavy duty coax for my collector coils as this provides a perfect core to wind the primaries on. RG218 is a good candidate. Cut 1196mm length and strip the outer sheath and remove the braiding ? this leaves the 15.7mm OD PE dielectric with 4.95mm OD copper core. The reason for using the coax is that you want precise and even spacing of the primary coil from the surface of the collector wire. I think this will work better than a stranded core ? it?s the precise/consistent spacing that is critical. Leave the striped coax straight for now.

2.   Wind a primary coil. I would do this on my lathe winding tightly with 1mm OD magnet wire over a  15mm OD steel former. After winding ? when the tension is released the coil will spring back enough to easily remove it from the former. It should slide snugly over the 15.7mm coax core you have prepared.

3.   The RG218 core is 5mm OD solid copper ? not very flexible and very hard to solder too neatly. For connecting to it I would drill 0.95mm holes radial into it right near the ends. I would then inert 1mm solid wire that I had sanded to a slight taper.

4.   Shrink wrap to hold the primary firmly in place. Alternately wrap tightly with a single layer of electrical tape.

5.    I would bend the completed collector with primary coil assembly over a circular former to bend into circular form. Tape the ends together and you can remove it from the form. The heavy copper core of the RG218 will help to stabilize the circle.

6.   *Variation: I would actually wind a perfect counterwound primary in anticipation of testing single primary vs counterwound. The reason for this is that we are interested in the spin wave front and not the B field generated by the primary. It may work better to eliminate the B field by applying the pulse to a counterwound primary. It is easy to wind a counterwound primary now and start testing driving just one helix. (I attached a photograph of the first counterwound coil I ever wound -- I found a novel way to make these perfectly and easily and made a whole lot of them a while back ;)

**OK -- you can also try a complete coax solution -- using the shield as the primary and core as the collector. In theory I thik this would work but the speed fo the spin wave front would be to fast to make for a practical design with a managable circumference.


Test procedure:

1.   Start with just one primary/collector coil.

2.   Connect the collector to a low impedance load ? a 100w incandescent light bulb.

3.   Drive the primary coil with the shortest pulse you can cleanly generate.  I would use a 600V MOSFET and drive with rectified mains voltage ~ 340V. I would use a good MOSFET driver like TC4421 and do everything else possible to ensure a clean fast pulse.

4.   Slowly sweep the drive frequency from 1Khz or so up to 100Khz looking for a peak in output. At this stage any peak should have a relatively low Q so it should be easy to find.

5.   I would then vary the pulse width ? looking to see if there is an optimum.

6.   I would repeat the previous step with single wound and counterwound primaries. I would try it with the primaries open circuit first and then closed to ground through a modest resistive load ? 1K ? 100K or so. The reasoning here is that we are looking for the optimum timing of the spin wave front pushing (SM talks about kicking and squeezing) a charge pulse down the collector == very fast circulating static field == very fast rotating magnetic field.

7.   After finding the optimum drive frequency for the first collector coil I would then add a second coil set. Space it one primary minor diameter above the first coil set ? that will be 15.7mm. I would use acetal or nylon spacers to hold the coil sets apart and tape them firmly together.
 
8.   I would series connect the collectors and check that with just driving the bottom primary things are working as expected. With the first primary (bottom coil set) running I would sweep the drive frequency of the second primary looking for further increase in the output. I would expect the Q to be higher now so I would sweep more slowly so as not to miss a resonance peak.

9.   I would repeat the previous step with the third (top) coil set added.

** After getting the three coil sets working as well as possible I would look at adding a bias coil around the whole set ? this is the single outer toroidal winding over SM devices.  I would use this winding to control both the static and magnetic bias environment for the three coil sets.

** All of this would be done with three independent signal sources. Only after getting everything tuned and working like this would I attempt to put in resonant feedback ? from one collector to the next primary.

** I would also repeat all of the above with three segment primary coils on a single colector and injecting the three frequencies into those three primaries on a single collector. I would try 3 primaries covering 120 deg and also 3 primaries covering 360 deg but tharting 120 apart.

If any of you are looking for control boards check out www.futurlec.com ? I would not use the http://www.futurlec.com/ATMEGA_Controller.shtml even though it has 6 independent PWM?s ? it?s too slow and you cant get good precise pulse width control over 10Khz or so. I am looking at using 3 of these http://www.futurlec.com/ARM7024_Controller.shtml and syncing them up.

tao

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2007, 08:20:41 AM »
Hi,
     If I am on the right track with the spinor resonance then phase, pulse timing and coil configurations wont quite be what you expect -- that doesnt mean they will be complicated, but not what classical intuition would lead you to expect. Simple experimentation is called for...

I won?t have time to do experimental work on this project for a few months. I have some other projects to finish, an overseas trip and an office to move first.

 If anyone is interested this is exactly how I will start. I?m giving instructions here so that others can try this if they wish. No guarantees -- this is just what I plan to do based on every bit of practical, hearsay and theoretical information I have to hand.

Construction:

1.   Starting with a single collector coil and primary. I would use some heavy duty coax for my collector coils as this provides a perfect core to wind the primaries on. RG218 is a good candidate. Cut 1196mm length and strip the outer sheath and remove the braiding ? this leaves the 15.7mm OD PE dielectric with 4.95mm OD copper core. The reason for using the coax is that you want precise and even spacing of the primary coil from the surface of the collector wire. I think this will work better than a stranded core ? it?s the precise/consistent spacing that is critical. Leave the striped coax straight for now.

2.   Wind a primary coil. I would do this on my lathe winding tightly with 1mm OD magnet wire over a  15mm OD steel former. After winding ? when the tension is released the coil will spring back enough to easily remove it from the former. It should slide snugly over the 15.7mm coax core you have prepared.

3.   The RG218 core is 5mm OD solid copper ? not very flexible and very hard to solder too neatly. For connecting to it I would drill 0.95mm holes radial into it right near the ends. I would then inert 1mm solid wire that I had sanded to a slight taper.

4.   Shrink wrap to hold the primary firmly in place. Alternately wrap tightly with a single layer of electrical tape.

5.    I would bend the completed collector with primary coil assembly over a circular former to bend into circular form. Tape the ends together and you can remove it from the form. The heavy copper core of the RG218 will help to stabilize the circle.

6.   *Variation: I would actually wind a perfect counterwound primary in anticipation of testing single primary vs counterwound. The reason for this is that we are interested in the spin wave front and not the B field generated by the primary. It may work better to eliminate the B field by applying the pulse to a counterwound primary. It is easy to wind a counterwound primary now and start testing driving just one helix. (I attached a photograph of the first counterwound coil I ever wound -- I found a novel way to make these perfectly and easily and made a whole lot of them a while back ;)

**OK -- you can also try a complete coax solution -- using the shield as the primary and core as the collector. In theory I thik this would work but the speed fo the spin wave front would be to fast to make for a practical design with a managable circumference.


Test procedure:

1.   Start with just one primary/collector coil.

2.   Connect the collector to a low impedance load ? a 100w incandescent light bulb.

3.   Drive the primary coil with the shortest pulse you can cleanly generate.  I would use a 600V MOSFET and drive with rectified mains voltage ~ 340V. I would use a good MOSFET driver like TC4421 and do everything else possible to ensure a clean fast pulse.

4.   Slowly sweep the drive frequency from 1Khz or so up to 100Khz looking for a peak in output. At this stage any peak should have a relatively low Q so it should be easy to find.

5.   I would then vary the pulse width ? looking to see if there is an optimum.

6.   I would repeat the previous step with single wound and counterwound primaries. I would try it with the primaries open circuit first and then closed to ground through a modest resistive load ? 1K ? 100K or so. The reasoning here is that we are looking for the optimum timing of the spin wave front pushing (SM talks about kicking and squeezing) a charge pulse down the collector == very fast circulating static field == very fast rotating magnetic field.

7.   After finding the optimum drive frequency for the first collector coil I would then add a second coil set. Space it one primary minor diameter above the first coil set ? that will be 15.7mm. I would use acetal or nylon spacers to hold the coil sets apart and tape them firmly together.
 
8.   I would series connect the collectors and check that with just driving the bottom primary things are working as expected. With the first primary (bottom coil set) running I would sweep the drive frequency of the second primary looking for further increase in the output. I would expect the Q to be higher now so I would sweep more slowly so as not to miss a resonance peak.

9.   I would repeat the previous step with the third (top) coil set added.

** After getting the three coil sets working as well as possible I would look at adding a bias coil around the whole set ? this is the single outer toroidal winding over SM devices.  I would use this winding to control both the static and magnetic bias environment for the three coil sets.

** All of this would be done with three independent signal sources. Only after getting everything tuned and working like this would I attempt to put in resonant feedback ? from one collector to the next primary.

** I would also repeat all of the above with three segment primary coils on a single colector and injecting the three frequencies into those three primaries on a single collector. I would try 3 primaries covering 120 deg and also 3 primaries covering 360 deg but tharting 120 apart.

If any of you are looking for control boards check out www.futurlec.com ? I would not use the http://www.futurlec.com/ATMEGA_Controller.shtml even though it has 6 independent PWM?s ? it?s too slow and you cant get good precise pulse width control over 10Khz or so. I am looking at using 3 of these http://www.futurlec.com/ARM7024_Controller.shtml and syncing them up.


Impeccable...

I poster after my own heart.

Funny, you start posting here just as I am making my grandiose thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2702.0.html , LOL.

Mark, it appears we have somewhat similar ideas, but use different terms/wordings ;)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 08:46:35 AM by tao »

MarkSnoswell

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2007, 09:50:34 AM »
Additional note for experimenters:

When series connecting the colector coils you have to either trim the conector length or tune the pulse delay (phase) of the drive coils. The reson is that it's the phase alignment and spacing of the multiple pulse trains in the collector coil that can give rise to a spinor resonance.


Tao -- yes I saw your posts... and everything else in this forum.


Rob -- "RE: spinor_--_electrical_coil_analouge_-_45deg_helicies.jpg
Does this show 4 conical shaped vorticies of magnetic field?"

No. I have attached the image here again for reference. The "coils" you see are trace lines through 3D space. This image is a composite showing some of the distorion of space at various points inside a spinor. As it is a spin 1/2 spinor it repeats every 720 deg (NOT 360 deg). At + 45 deg you get the orange and at -45 deg the red conical pairs of spacial distortions. At 360 deg you get the pancacke and solenoid distortion (in fact all of the spherical volume is wound up at 360 deg).
This image suggests that a spinor resonance could be generated with various coils wound in a simillar fashion to the image. However phasing of the coils would be dificult -- thay would best be driven with timed pulses at the phase angles I indicated.

I have attached two animations of composite spinors. There is *no* tnagling of space. In the first animation you can see that the central spere rotates twice in one cycle -- this is a spin 1/2 characteristic. You are looking at a representation of a spherical wave like the one that could be an electron or proton. These waves spin space continuously but never tangle space. There is no magic or trickery here although it is beyond everyday intuition -- you really can take any closed 3D volume and spin it continuously in oue direction without it ever geting tangled.

In the second animation you see a layered spinor (it's still spin 1/2). With the multiple spinors layered it is easier to se the regular distortions of space at various points in the 720 deg cycle.

In case you think these animations show an unrealistic distortion of space -- they do not. With a Plank length mesh and the diameter of a proton the distortions you see here would be flatter than the curvature of surface of the Earth!


The final image is a snapshot of orthognal trace lines distorted in a 3 phase spinor with homogenous energy distribution into all availble curvature modes, but with rigid shells for any given radius. The remarkable feature is that space is spiraling along every axis -- even though there is no tangling of and we are dealing with harmonic rotations of rigid spherical shells!

Cheers

mark.

Earl

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Talking about phase...
« Reply #81 on: July 14, 2007, 06:18:10 PM »
Hi Mark, hi All,

Mark, I am enthralled that you have shown up on overunity.com and this thread.

I have various and sundry comments and questions to make.

Why do you use the term "3-phase" in the image name:

3_phase_spinor_-__Mark_Snoswell_2006_.jpg

I could understand 3D, perhaps you mean this is the result of 3 electrical signals, perhaps of -sine w, +sine w, and sine 2w ??

Your comments on the following imaginary system please:
a vertical copper bar with bottom end in the ground and the top end going to a distribution system or washing machine.  This straight, linear bar has three coils on it, spaced at appropriate distances, which are pulsed with 1kV 1 picosecond wide pulses.  Could this be a mover and shaker, or would it be a flop?  Would such an imaginary system generate "3-phase" spinors?  Or must the collector be bent in a circle?

If a circular system with n coils, driven by high-voltage picosecond signals with 360/n phase difference is good and goes like King-Kong, would not a duplicate ring going through the center and positioned orthogonal be even better?  The corresponding signals would have a phase shift of 90 degrees between the rings.

If one was to take the copper-colored cone-shaped coils, as in the image below, and feed the two cones with HV narrow pulses of opposite polarity (at the pointed ends) would a radiant energy collector as shown in green be the best location?  Or the flat spiral Tesla type of coil colored in blue?  Or maybe the outside purple-colored coil?  Here the pulses would have to be sufficiently short and the cone coil conductors sufficiently long such that the pulse would end before something traveling at the speed of light reached the end of the cone coil.  This is an absolutely crazy idea that has nothing to do with traditional engineering thought.

This idea could be carried further by reinserting the two cone coils that I removed and feeding them with 90 degree phase shift.

By feeding the two/four cones at the center, lead lengths would be short, which is good for nanosecond or picosecond pulses, but the coil ends have no choice but to hang open and unterminated.  This tends to disturb my traditional non-RE brain.

In theory, one could have a set of three coil pairs, each orthogonal to the other pairs.  The first two pairs would be fed 90 degrees out of phase, but the third set ???

In your spin_half_spinor_composition_-_c.avi animation, you have
y = - sin a
x = cos 2a and
y = sin a

what does it look like if there are three dimensions involved:
y = - sin a
x = cos 2a and
z = sin a
or something equivalent?

Regards, Earl

gn0stik

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #82 on: July 14, 2007, 08:05:05 PM »
Guys, not to detract from Mark's awesome posts, but I believe he should have his own thread. It is related in that it is dependent on phase. But we're trying to replicate a WORKING device here, in Bob's design. We have all the information we need to do that from Bob.

Now, Bob's device may work on some of these principals, however, we're talking about significant design changes now. And, personally, I believe we're being distracted by theory, when we already have build instructions.

That being said. I also think that Mark's stuff will help us go from Bob's device to SM's device after we've built bob's and we decide that it's time to expand upon it.

I think we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we changed paths right now.

Regards,
Rich

Bruce_TPU

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2007, 11:54:50 PM »
Well  said Rich, and ditto's.

@ Dr. Mark Snoswell

If you would be kind enough to start your own thread, "spinors" it would be wonderful.  And also help us get back to build instructions over here from Bob B.  Perhaps we could have Stefan transfer some of your posts and photos if you prefer.  Or you can reference them with a link.

Highest regards, your work is great!
Bruce

MarkSnoswell

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2007, 03:57:01 AM »
I have started a new thread here http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2764.0.html
with copies of all my posts from this thread.

gn0stik

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2007, 05:05:48 AM »
so that's it, anybody working on this thing?

rich

Grumpy

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2007, 07:28:20 AM »
4017 is wired - coil is wired - no time to get too deep into it now.  Got 3 days vacation starting tomorrow - so next weekend I crank it up.  I used a CD74HC4017 - good to 50Mhz.   Prtty damn simple - I recommend everyone plug one in and check out the RMF.

Bifilar series, by the way - got to lt Tesla get a piece of the action...hehehe!!!  I'll get a picture up.   Bias coil is completely outside - only one vector effecting the RMF until t proves otherwise.

More later...

PS - Get your hands dirty!

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2007, 09:41:25 AM »
Hello @ all

I finally had a tiny break in the daily doctor trips and was able to actually spend a few hours out in the shop tonight starting on another core wind. I was able to get a couple of pictures to upload here.

This picture is of the core (MicroMetals T650-52), a roll of winding tape, a spool of magnet wire, a block of beeswax, and the heat gun I use to melt the wax.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 03:54:30 AM by Bob Boyce »

Thaelin

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2007, 10:00:11 AM »
Hi Bob:
   Really hate to have to bother you with this question but I can find no price on these torrids anywhere. Micrometals has much info but no prices. Can you give a ball park as to how much I am going to have to shell out for this. I have wound a torrid and then realize that it breaks every rule set down. So back to the start and do it by the papers.
   I see you are using regular enamel wire here. Will that suffice in making it run? I am not sure I can source the silver coated wire. Ready to fly with things on the controller now. Three parts on the way to finish it.

Thanks much

thaelin

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #89 on: July 19, 2007, 04:01:37 PM »
Hi Bob:
   Really hate to have to bother you with this question but I can find no price on these torrids anywhere. Micrometals has much info but no prices. Can you give a ball park as to how much I am going to have to shell out for this. I have wound a torrid and then realize that it breaks every rule set down. So back to the start and do it by the papers.
   I see you are using regular enamel wire here. Will that suffice in making it run? I am not sure I can source the silver coated wire. Ready to fly with things on the controller now. Three parts on the way to finish it.

Thanks much

thaelin

You will have to submit a sample quote request from micrometals for the number of cores you want. Back when I sourced mine, they were only US $25 each (in qty of 3) + shipping. Others have been given higher quotes, probably due to increased demand and location.

I am using regular wire for that winding because the longitudinally wound bias winding is a DC winding, not HF.

Sure, you can use magnet wire for the HF transverse windings, at reduced efficiency. I shall leave it for others to explain why the silver plating on the wire makes it more desirable at HF. And before the Litze wire recomendations start pouring in, keep it in mind that the more random nature of the intertwisted insulated conductors makes precision control of the fields nearly impossible! Stranded wire is bad enough due to the field perturbations caused by the twists and bumps in the conductor group surfaces. This is why I go through the extra difficulty of sourcing solid mil-spec silver plated wire. But stranded ml-spec silver plated teflon insulated wire is still better than magnet wire.

I have to take off now to go pick up materials from a machine shop.

Laters.
Bob
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 04:27:45 PM by Bob Boyce »