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Author Topic: Talking about phase...  (Read 69507 times)

Grumpy

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2007, 01:41:56 AM »
@Bob B.

So, you are using a three-phase arrangment, with a biasing dc solenoid at the core/center, and toroidal secondary - which is internal to primaries.

Are you shifting the phase digitally like with a stepper controller or analog with like an RC network?  Not that it matters, just asking - no one else is asking any questions.

Does not sound as though your wire lengths are critical.  Is this a correct assumption?

Can you elaorate on pulse shapes and their effects?

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2007, 08:51:12 PM »
I was thinking along the lines of Tesla, finding he could create stationary waves with an oscillator. In his Colorado Springs Notes, Tesla noted that these stationary waves "... can be produced with an oscillator," and added in parenthesis, "This is of immense importance." I believe that with SM's device, he has produces this stationary wave at 7.3 Hz. I would love to know how the frequencies within the Toroid would react to that. I hope that helps to explain that question.  :)

I would suggest you grab the .pdf of SM's clues from the locked thread entitled, "Read this first".  I think you would understand it far better than most.  And you continued help here is most appreciated.  Some of these guys have been working for a very, very long time on this project.

Also, knowing that your Toroid has had control problems in the past, SM's did as well until they developed the proper controller for it.  He warns us over and over of the potential for danger and the need for a frequency kill switch.  Overheat shutoff switch, and over voltage shutoff.  I look forward to the release of your controller.

If you are using frequency, phase, and pulse in your Toroid you already have very much in commen with SM's device.  Have you experimented along the lines of Identical signals/different sources, opposing one another, one slightly out of phase,in your Toroid? 


Hello Bob.

Please see above, for replies!   

Thank you very much for the information you have already given us.  We will digest it.  Test it.  And use that which we can.

Warm Regards,
Bruce

As I had already mentioned, standing waves do play a very big role in interactions between out of phase signals. I'm not so convinced that 7.3 Hz was a target, as the heating issue SM had mentioned tends to suggest higher frequency operation. A proportionally smaller portion of energy is a lot easier to control.

I downloaded the info and went over it, just finished reading it all. It is amazing how much information has been provided by SM, yet the majority seems to have gone right over the heads of most people here. There are a few here however that really do seem to have a good grasp of the concept, and are doing very well. SM has given way more informatiuon than required to fully replicate a device that operates on these principles. Heck, I have had 2 people replicate my toroidal power system so far, and I didn't even have to give them nearly as much key information as SM has provided! I only provided them with the toroid winding and connection information, power requirements, preliminary tuning instructions, and some safety advice. I did not go into fine detail on the theory of operation. They observed the anomolous behavior and learned for themselves how to tune from there for improved operation.

I really wanted to say that this does not have to be that difficult, just listen to SM and follow his clues. But after having dealt with exactly this sort of issue myself over the years, where most people just don't seem to grasp even the simplest of details, I can definitely relate to the frustration that SM seems to have. I eventually became so frustrated that I buried myself in my research and gave up trying to explain any of the really intense details to others.

I rarely go into the details because frankly, most people think I'm nuts when I speak of anomolous energy or apparent over-unity output. These poor closed-minded souls do not look at the big picture, that WE do not have to input all of the energy IFwe can tap into and channel a natural energy flow to do work. Do WE put the energy in the wind that we can tap with a windmill? Do WE put the energy into the sunlight that we can tap with a solar panel? Do WE put the energy into the stream that we can tap with a water wheel? Of course not. They seem to have very little trouble with these examples, but yet they have a very hard time grasping the concept of tapping into unseen or unfelt natural energies.

I helped several replicators closely, and shared proprietary information with over 2 dozen experimenters that were willing to enter into non-disclosure agreements. After getting burned by one of them, a guy in Australia that published a portion of my proprietary and copyrighted information and diagrams, things changed. I'm just glad that he betrayed me prior to getting the more intimate details, as that severely limited the impact of his actions. My attorney still will not allow me to make any further detailed disclosures under NDA, while we determine the damages of this one NDA violation. I still work with the replicators that are already involved, but have not taken on helping any new ones.

The main reason I am so careful with this is, the dangers involved with precision phase control getting out of control are great. SM was absolutely correct about what can occur during energy avalanches. Even if tuned off-center, tremendous energy can flow if an avalanche occurs. I have experienced the wrath of this on a couple of occasions. Lightning protection is an absolute MUST if you are wanting to experiment along these lines. If you look outside and see the clouds above you begin to slowly spin, centered over your location, shut it down immediately! I am not kidding here. I don't want to scare you off, just make you aware of how dangerous this technology can be at higher power levels.

This is why I designed my toroidal power system specifically for use with the hydroxy gas systems. The onboard safeties are there to shut down the frequency generators, as long as the safeties are connected to overtemp, overvolt, overcurrent, and overpressure detection. I did as much as I could to make this as safe as possible for those that know nothing about the technology. The controllers were also designed to minimize the risk of conditions favoring an avalanche from even occuring. The use of water as a load can minimize the impact of lower energy avalanches, as the energy can be totally absorbed by the water. By design, it is also very difficult for someone to create the right conditions to get it to even operate correctly by accident. They will have to know how to wind the toroid, how it is connected, how to power it, and how to tune it. Without that information, it is nothing more than an oddly wound toroidal transformer ;-)

PS: Mannix, if you are still in contact with SM, please relay to him that I understand the frustration, and I hope all is well with him.

Bob Boyce

HumblePie

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2007, 09:20:09 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for sharing.   So glad to hear your validation of TPU as you are very well known and respected.   Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here!

Humble
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 12:28:35 AM by HumblePie »

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2007, 09:57:29 PM »
@Bob B.

So, you are using a three-phase arrangment, with a biasing dc solenoid at the core/center, and toroidal secondary - which is internal to primaries.

Are you shifting the phase digitally like with a stepper controller or analog with like an RC network?  Not that it matters, just asking - no one else is asking any questions.

Does not sound as though your wire lengths are critical.  Is this a correct assumption?

Can you elaorate on pulse shapes and their effects?

@Grumpy

Three phase, yes. The DC biasing is distributed around the core periphery. I have 2 different winding setups.

The one that incorporates DC bias into the secondary winding is one strictly for driving the hydroxy gas systems, and it is very tame in comparison. It lacks an intense angular field component, which makes it very mild-mannered in comparison. It is not so prone to runaway, but lacks in total power capacity. It is like a tropical storm at best. This is the one shared with the hydroxy gas crowd.

The one that has a seperate DC bias winding can introduce a much greater angular field, but it can be quite the beast to control. This one is like a hurricane that can turn into a tornado at a moments notice. This is one that can initiate intense lightning strikes and other nasty stuff if not kept on a VERY tight leash. Obviously, this one is not shared with the hydroxy gas crowd.

The controller that I designed and released into the public domain does not utilize phase control. Precision phase control is too dangerous for most of the type of hobbyists that usually want to build the hydroxy gas systems, so a milder form of controller was the answer. It uses pulse conditioning and safety interrupts prior to the power MOSFET devices. My method of precision phase control is via precision pulse duration and timing using software on a microcontroller. The outputs are conditioned and applied through safety interrupts to power MOSFETs via drivers.

The secondary wire lengths are not critical in and of themselves, as long as it is a full fill around the toroid. What is important is that the number of turns on the secondary, in combination with target DC bias, are used to determine optimum primary winding ratio. Core diameter determines the amount of power that can safely be handled without heating issues.

Pulse shapes vs effects... It's much more complex than just pulse shapes. But think about what you are asking. Do we really want that sort of information spelled out online, even if there were a mapping chart of frequencies/waveform patterns/effects? Just consider what could happen if certain people were to get all the information they could on negative uses of this or any other energy technology.

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2007, 10:04:46 PM »
Hi Bob,

And thank you for your well put together answers to our questions.  I agree that it is amazing how 1000 people can read the same words and most never hear them. 

I also, some time ago, made the suggestion of testing with our units hooked to a simple HHO cell, to get a true reading of output current.  Also because it seems that SM's toroid was able to "rise to the load", of course within bounds.  But if one is lighting one bulb, how does that person know that there is enough wattage to light five bulbs.  So I had suggest the tie in with HHO.  But many in this community boo'd me for this.  I took it as lack of understanding and carried on!  LOL  :)  It is good that you do understand.

Lastly, after you have read SM's clues, how similar would you say your devise is both in function and in mechanics to the SM device?  Also does your toroid produce Alternating Current or Direct Current for power output?

Thank you and warm regards,
Bruce

Earl

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Talking about phase...
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2007, 11:55:25 PM »
Hi Bob, hi All,

I have just posted an idea with schematic at

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg38506.html#msg38506

and am looking for peer review.

I call it the Rat Race because it is like a rat running in a circle chasing its own tail.

Regards, Earl

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2007, 01:39:54 AM »
Hi Bob,

And thank you for your well put together answers to our questions.  I agree that it is amazing how 1000 people can read the same words and most never hear them. 

I also, some time ago, made the suggestion of testing with our units hooked to a simple HHO cell, to get a true reading of output current.  Also because it seems that SM's toroid was able to "rise to the load", of course within bounds.  But if one is lighting one bulb, how does that person know that there is enough wattage to light five bulbs.  So I had suggest the tie in with HHO.  But many in this community boo'd me for this.  I took it as lack of understanding and carried on!  LOL  :)  It is good that you do understand.

Lastly, after you have read SM's clues, how similar would you say your devise is both in function and in mechanics to the SM device?  Also does your toroid produce Alternating Current or Direct Current for power output?

Thank you and warm regards,
Bruce

Yes, one of the "features" of this power source is that it seems to adapt to the load, within reason of course. Load impedance is fairly important to getting maximum output, due in part to the HF portion of the energy riding on the DC output. Momentary shorting of the output does result in a plasma-like discharge arc.

From what I can see, they do look to be very similar. The primary differences that I could see are core material and number of poles. It sounds and looks like SM used stranded copper wire and 4 poles, while I use powdered iron and 3 poles in my current device. Otherwise, both seem to build up a swirling electromagnetic vortex during operation.

I have used other core materials with varying degrees of success as well over the years. I started out with laminated iron cores on the 2 phase devices in the mid 80s, and progressed to air cores on the 3 phase devices in the early 90s. One of the first units I tried 3 phase on was a Seike "g-strain energy absorber" that I had connected to a hand wound 3 phase air core torus coil. Talk about uncontrolled operation! But I kept at it, unaware of the dangers. Since I was no longer doing the hydroxy gas research at that time, I was obsessed with trying to replicate Tesla and Moray research on a shoestring budget. After my lightning strike injury in 1995, I mothballed that line of research until I had the time, energy, and funds to continue. I refused to apply this 3 phase design to practical application until the control issue could be solved.

I have openly shared almost all of my past research online, and even most of my more recent research. But like SM, I am reluctant to share the latest microcontroller based controller research. This does not mean that I will not, it just means that I will do so very carefully. I already have a "bare bones" model designed and being tested by another replicator. The toroidal core is nothing special, a MicroMetals T650-52 green/blue core. They make these material 52 cores in various sizes, but I understand that the T650 size are on back-order due to the current heavy demand from the hydroxy gas folk.

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2007, 03:15:34 AM »
Again Bob, a wealth of information.  You have answered even unasked questions in your last post.  Thank you again.

A fellow builder and poster, working closely with me on our next build had suggested 3 phase, with the thought that it was probably what Tesla used for his famous "Egg of Columbus" demonstration.  And yes, you are correct, that at least in the early years, there was four poles on the SM TPU.  In his clues, as to the mechanics of the unit, he merely says, "segments".  But hearing the control problem you had with 3 phase, it sounds like you think it safer for us to perhaps start with two phase for our rotating field.

I have tried to get others to realize that it is the way to produce DC output.  The intermix of three frequencies, as facinating as they are, in producing alternating current, it is not overunity, but as SM says, "They are only a means to achieve an end."

With the potential danger that these devices "can" pose, when operating, how can we all work together to overcome these, and introduce such a working device to the world.  Or do you see that as "not possible".  Perhaps it could be scaled up to say "transmission station" size and used safer in that way.  I am sure you must have thought on this.

Warm regards,
Bruce

bob.rennips

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2007, 05:25:30 AM »

I had been using one of these:
http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/motor_controller/microstepping_motor_controllers.htm

I had four 'motor' coils arranged on a wooden board in typical 2 phase motor arrangement but all Norths pointing towards the center, so basically pulsing north facing towards center, magnetic pulses in a circle. I placed another air core solenoid over the whole arrangement. i.e. Like placing a pipe vertically over the coils so the circumference of the one pipe covered all the 4 coils. In otherwords this solenoid is at 90 degrees to the four coils.

I placed 12 volts DC from a car battery across this solenoid in series with a 15ohm 20watt resistor.

A function generator pulsed the microstep controller. I had the whole thing running at around 6.8Khz. I was looking at waveforms on the scope to see if the DC coil, even though it was at 90 degrees to the other coils, affected the scope waveform. No real difference detected.

The DC coil was connected to one battery and the microstep and the four coils to another battery. I used two batteries is so that there would be no possibility of electrical noise from the 4 coil switching going over the wires to the DC coil via the common connections to a single battery.

The connection to the DC coil came loose at the battery and was sparking and then POOF the whole microstep controller goes up in smoke. You could smell burnt up electrolytic capacitors and could see resistors burnt out on opening the box up.

Theoretically there should have been no coupling between the DC coil and the four coils... so this is a very interesting result. However, I can't afford to burn up $99+, each time I try this!, so now looking for a cheaper homemade circuit, to continue the 'burning' experiment.


Hi Bob,

Back in April I experienced the above. It appears to have a similar arrangement of coils to what you have been doing. Could this be the case or was it just BEMF getting into the 'motor' coils ?

thanks,
   Bob
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 07:24:21 AM by bob.rennips »

Grumpy

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2007, 06:17:07 AM »
Thanks much, Bob  B. - my commetns in blue:

More than enough to get started - I am surprised more are not discussing this.

@Grumpy

The DC biasing is distributed around the core periphery.


This makes the direction of the bias field "directional".  Depending upon the field centered may prove beneficial or detrimental - for example of the outer edge reversed.

The one that has a seperate DC bias winding can introduce a much greater angular field, but it can be quite the beast to control.

Yes, I see what you are saying.

The controller that I designed and released into the public domain does not utilize phase control. Precision phase control is too dangerous for most of the type of hobbyists that usually want to build the hydroxy gas systems, so a milder form of controller was the answer. It uses pulse conditioning and safety interrupts prior to the power MOSFET devices. My method of precision phase control is via precision pulse duration and timing using software on a microcontroller. The outputs are conditioned and applied through safety interrupts to power MOSFETs via drivers.

Got it.

Pulse shapes vs effects... It's much more complex than just pulse shapes. But think about what you are asking. Do we really want that sort of information spelled out online, even if there were a mapping chart of frequencies/waveform patterns/effects? Just consider what could happen if certain people were to get all the information they could on negative uses of this or any other energy technology.

I'll stop with the "means of excitation determines the result" and leave it at that.

Bob Boyce


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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2007, 07:36:25 AM »
Hi Bob,

Back in April I experienced the above. It appears to have a similar setup to what you have been doing. Could this be the case or was it just BEMF getting into the 'motor' coils ?

thanks,
   Bob

From some of the pictures of the SM device I looked at, it appears that SM used permanent magnets oriented to provide a fixed magnetic preload bias to his device. This would give a preset amount of angular distortion (twist) to his RMF. I do not know if he later went to adjustable fields in the interest of maintaining better control.

The magnetic field from an applied DC bias allows for an adjustable amount of angular distortion to form in the RMF. Polarity of applied DC determines the direction of angular distortion in reference to the desired direction of RMF spin, ie CW or CCW (depending on hemisphere). The strength of the DC bias field determines the extent of angular distortion in the RMF. Essentially, the kicks are the interacting energy, while the shape of the EM field can help to guide the overall operational characteristics. This is why so many device configurations are possible with this type of technology, some working better than others. Are you wanting a mild angular distortion to keep power down and minimize control issues, or do you want a wild angular distorsion to tap massive power at the trade-off of control stability and other possible issues? Having a RMF with angular distortion does not replace the requirement of providing interacting kick energy with sharp, clean pulses.

Again Bob, a wealth of information.  You have answered even unasked questions in your last post.  Thank you again.

A fellow builder and poster, working closely with me on our next build had suggested 3 phase, with the thought that it was probably what Tesla used for his famous "Egg of Columbus" demonstration.  And yes, you are correct, that at least in the early years, there was four poles on the SM TPU.  In his clues, as to the mechanics of the unit, he merely says, "segments".  But hearing the control problem you had with 3 phase, it sounds like you think it safer for us to perhaps start with two phase for our rotating field.

I have tried to get others to realize that it is the way to produce DC output.  The intermix of three frequencies, as facinating as they are, in producing alternating current, it is not overunity, but as SM says, "They are only a means to achieve an end."

With the potential danger that these devices "can" pose, when operating, how can we all work together to overcome these, and introduce such a working device to the world.  Or do you see that as "not possible".  Perhaps it could be scaled up to say "transmission station" size and used safer in that way.  I am sure you must have thought on this.

Warm regards,
Bruce

No, I am not recommending cutting back to 2 phases unless that is what you want to do. The amount of reliable interaction possible from kick reduces as you go to 2 phase energy patterns.

As to safety and use. Honestly, I don't think that the energy barons of this world would willingly stand by and allow this sort of technology to progress to widespread use without a fight. This is something that will have to be relegated to the grass roots efforts of basement inventors and tinkerers. Safety is relative to design. While it is entirely possible to design in limitations, there can be no absolute guarantee that something can not or will go wrong. All we can do it try to mitigate the issues. For example, if you design this to use a fixed power set of bias permanent magnets, and it runs great, but some yahoo decides to stick on bigger magnets without beefing up the control system... catch my drift? More is not always better, but some people do not see it that way.

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2007, 08:06:39 AM »
@Grumpy

Three phase, yes. The DC biasing is distributed around the core periphery. I have 2 different winding setups.

The one that incorporates DC bias into the secondary winding is one strictly for driving the hydroxy gas systems, and it is very tame in comparison. It lacks an intense angular field component, which makes it very mild-mannered in comparison. It is not so prone to runaway, but lacks in total power capacity. It is like a tropical storm at best. This is the one shared with the hydroxy gas crowd.

The one that has a seperate DC bias winding can introduce a much greater angular field, but it can be quite the beast to control. This one is like a hurricane that can turn into a tornado at a moments notice. This is one that can initiate intense lightning strikes and other nasty stuff if not kept on a VERY tight leash. Obviously, this one is not shared with the hydroxy gas crowd.

The controller that I designed and released into the public domain does not utilize phase control. Precision phase control is too dangerous for most of the type of hobbyists that usually want to build the hydroxy gas systems, so a milder form of controller was the answer. It uses pulse conditioning and safety interrupts prior to the power MOSFET devices. My method of precision phase control is via precision pulse duration and timing using software on a microcontroller. The outputs are conditioned and applied through safety interrupts to power MOSFETs via drivers.

The secondary wire lengths are not critical in and of themselves, as long as it is a full fill around the toroid. What is important is that the number of turns on the secondary, in combination with target DC bias, are used to determine optimum primary winding ratio. Core diameter determines the amount of power that can safely be handled without heating issues.

Pulse shapes vs effects... It's much more complex than just pulse shapes. But think about what you are asking. Do we really want that sort of information spelled out online, even if there were a mapping chart of frequencies/waveform patterns/effects? Just consider what could happen if certain people were to get all the information they could on negative uses of this or any other energy technology.

Bob Boyce


Hi Bob,

My partner and I had our eyes fixed on 3 phase, so thanks for that confirmation.  3 phase it will be.

I understand the new controller is proprietory, so I will not ask about that.  ;)   So let's talk mechanics for a moment.  Do you recommend 1 secondary and three primary, with the primary wound in trifilar fashion, wound perpindicular on the toroid, 360 deg.?

I thought I had run across this on your site.  I am trying to picture in 3D how you have wound your coils, or should I say, how you would recommend, for us to start and learn and study from.  The simplest design possible!   ;D  And I know it is difficult to express pictorially with words.  Let's call anything wound around the circumference of the coil, horizontal and anything wound perpindicular to that, perpindicular.  LOL

Warm regards,
Bruce


« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 05:10:59 PM by btentzer »

Grumpy

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2007, 04:15:33 PM »
@Bob B.

The only general details left are direction (CCW or CW) - and safety measures.

I have freq sources - adjustable output.  With two signals I can do just about anything - drive logic circuits or drive four coils for four phase.

With the DC bias - I'll start with milliamps.

@btentzer
Hush the talk of "public" and "open" and replace with "private" and "cryptic".


Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2007, 11:22:43 PM »
@Bruce

I will take better photos during my next toroid winding session, that should help. I used to have a toroidal transformer photo posted in one of my project folders on the oupower.com site. I had to remove it because everyone was counting the primary turns and taking that winding count as absolute and literal. Even though I had put in that pictures description that the toroid shown had been wound for a particular application (a 290 VDC system), and would not work for any other voltage system. I tired of repeating this to people as well, so I finally just totally removed the photo.


@all

While on the subject of toroids, I contacted MicroMetals about core availability. As many have posted, they are still out of stock on the T650-52 core. I was told that the next production run of 90 units are due to be ready on 08/08/2007. Some have apparently ordered the -26 material cores as a replacement. I can only guess that they based this on material density and reference permeability, or maybe the lower price. However the -26 material has a higher temperature coefficient of permeability, and higher thermal conductivity. Quality is important.

I source my mil-spec wire from surplus outlets to save money, and tried doing that for cores as well. It worked ok when I was able to find the right cores, but I ended up wasting more money in the long run buying surplus cores to try.

Bob

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2007, 01:51:49 AM »
hmm - iron core or air core - hmm - decisions...decisions