Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Talking about phase...  (Read 65741 times)

Offline Bruce_TPU

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1437
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2007, 02:03:45 AM »
@ Grumpy
I vote one of each.  LOL

Never a good thing to have all or our eggs in one toroidal basket!

@ Bob Boyce
Pictures would be helpful of course.  Is there a formula you have worked out based on diameter of the core, or say primary to secondary winding?  Or would that same formula be the same regardless of diameter, but simply the length/amount of wire would change?

Warm regards,
Bruce

Offline Bob Boyce

  • TPU-Elite
  • Full Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 139
    • Water is Life
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2007, 02:36:06 AM »
hmm - iron core or air core - hmm - decisions...decisions

I was gonna say try both, as toroidal power systems can be be made in many ways, but Bruce already answered that while I was typing this.

Bob

Offline Grumpy

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2247
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2007, 04:29:31 AM »
CCW was my first guess.

Your winding arrangement - being circumferal - produces more than just a rmf.   

The number of poles might effect the pattern of he standing wave when the shift occurs - have to think more about that.

winding...

Offline Grumpy

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2247
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2007, 10:47:34 PM »
It's wound.

Not sure if I want to use a ring counter or my two freq gens to drive it.

Offline giantkiller

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2791
    • http://www.planetary-engineering.com
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2007, 11:41:09 PM »
Well put some pics out and parade that beauty down the promenade!

--giantkiller.

Offline Bruce_TPU

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1437
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2007, 12:51:34 AM »
Yep, pictures would be good, Grumpy.  I hope you took some at each of the three stages. 

Others should not be far behind!   ;D

Methinks the controller may slow some down, to add the needed precision.  Except GK, he almost had every tuning imaginable as it was!  LOL

I love this part...the building!  I can't wait to see the electronics Jason and Roberto come up with!

Happy Days! :)
Bruce

Offline Grumpy

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2247
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2007, 05:00:19 PM »
Let's get back to the discussion of "phase":

@Bob B:

How close to ideal phase separation (as in 120 degrees separation for three poles, 90 degrees for four, etc.) should or shouldn't it be?  I can use a ring counter or shift register to get the phased signals and then adjust them at each coil to make up for differences in winding/position, etc. - this sounds like the best approach.

Are you reversing the signal polarity like a 3-phase motor or just positive pulses?

--------------------------

I got the parts, just need to wire them up.  Pretty simple actually.  Earl posted a circuit on another thread that would be good for experimenting.  Build that and adjust the clock for freq, tune the phases, and hold on to your hat.

EDIT: (Earl's circuits - http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.0.html )

Pictures?  This is so simple to wind - why would you need a picture?

EDIT:  I did not count the windings.  I did not take pictures while winding.  It is easy enough to disassemble when and if the time comes.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 07:17:50 PM by Grumpy »

Offline HumblePie

  • TPU-Elite
  • Jr. Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 59
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2007, 08:34:06 PM »
@Bob B.,

Please tell us how do we 'focus the field inward' for safety as you describe. 

I assume the DB Bias is preferred for battery charging as well.  Does this help in containing or focusing the field? 

Can you tell us more about calculating efficient windings needed for a particular core size and intended load as you mentioned?  Thank you very much for time and patience.

Humble
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 12:25:19 AM by HumblePie »

Offline Grumpy

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2247
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2007, 10:37:50 PM »
I am trying to be more like the following quote from Bob Boyce on the Oupower.com forum, and encourage everyone else to do the same:

Quote
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:01 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I'm glad someone is getting encouraged. Yea, I suppose Lester Hendershot, and the others that successfully replicated his device, made sure they were always nearby to a powerful radio transmitter before tuning their devices to run lights and motors. Must be one hell of a crystal diode radio receiver 

Been there, done that. When I was fiddling with atmospheric energy, I experienced first-hand the typically pitiful amounts of power that could be drawn from RF and atmospheric potential. Unless one had access to a couple of high mountaintops like the Swiss Alps or a few really tall radio towers to string cables between, the current was typically in the microamps. That does not always hold true though. I have witnessed some spectacular discharges and potentials from some of the simplest of radiant energy collectors at times, and not because of nearby thunderstorms. Utility linemen must ground unconnected lines before working on them, to discharge the potentially lethal atmospheric potential, even when there are no nearby energized lines to couple or leak. I guess that means they are only imagining that they could be killed.

I have been on top of remote radio and television towers under construction, where there are no nearby transmitters yet in operation, dozens of miles from the next nearest radio tower, and witnessed first-hand the audible sizzle and visible corona of atmospheric potential from sharp points of metal. I have held electrostatic dissipators in my hands while installing them, and watched these corona discharges continue as the energy passed right through my body from the tower to the dissipators on many occasions. I have been on radio towers, within 50 feet of the top, as they were hit repeatedly by lightning. It was an occupational hazard that one must endure when installing or removing antennas from governmental/commercial radio or broadcast towers, sometimes even during inclement weather. When you spend all day working up on a tower in south Florida, you can't just decide to come down when the weather changes, or nothing would ever get done. And yes, I do still have pictures taken from some of these giant towers 

What's the point in all of this? Simple, unless you actually get your hands dirty building or doing something, you can only speculate and go by what you have been taught, whether it was right or wrong. Am I a scientist? No way. I like to actually build and test rather than use scientific models. If I see a need to test for something, I will. I don't always need to know why something observed behaves the way it does. Sure, I would like to know. But some of my most unproductive time was spent pouring over scientific texts trying to make heads or tails of observed phenomonae. I find it more satisfactory to explore and see how better to make practical use of this, rather than to pour through endless textbooks trying to find politically correct terminology.

Bob


"IronHead" summarized this advice down to three words: "Just Build It!"

Offline HumblePie

  • TPU-Elite
  • Jr. Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 59
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2007, 05:11:43 AM »
'K.  Already in motion.  Saftey first like Bob B. says. 


Offline gn0stik

  • TPU-Elite
  • Sr. Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 302
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2007, 09:17:21 PM »
Bob, My question is about your 90 degree biasing winding.

I can "see" the rest of how your coil is constructed if not connected in my mind, but this bit is a bit shady.

Do you mean that it is circumferentially wound around the outside of the torus? As in SM's collector, only more turns, and around the outside of the secondary?

This is the image I have in my head based on your description.

On another note, I agree with you that it is understandable why SM gets frustrated by know it alls, and newbies who think they are on track, but are actually just distractions. Or worse yet, people who don't get basic clues in spite of their proclaimed experience. I understand that you have probably had to deal with a number of these types over the years of your research career. It's one of the things that makes communicating via forums difficult. Threads are easily sidetracked by these types, and they are usually relentless posters. The quiet few knowlegable ones, that are not attention whores are usually the productive few. There are a few noisy yet productive types as well... They are typically the eccentric, too-smart-for-your-own-good types. But are exceptions to the rule generally.

You mentioned however that you have given "less" information, and others have been able to replicate.

The information you gave them was winding, connection, and tuning info, which was all pretty specific.

There are a lot of pretty sharp guys here, and in their defense, the information you gave out was pretty specific info. Whereas SM's info has been easily interpreted a number of ways. You, coming from a background with a device that operates very similarly to his, see everything plain as day. You were already wearing "TPU tinted glasses" so to speak. The rest of the dedicated few here have spent thousands in personal funds in order to find out if "this interpretation" or "that interpretation" has been right. There are simply too many variables to explore. And we can have one or two, or even a dozen variables exactly right, but if one is off, we have to scrap that model and move on, never knowing we had it mostly right.

See the problem? You yourself said that without knowing the connection details and winding specifics, and driving specifics, it would be very difficult to even accidentally come across the desired effects.

So, that is what we have been doing. Me, for two years now. Most of us have "TPU Graveyards" that we keep in case something proves to be promising, and we discover that at one point in the past we happened to have more things right than wrong.

Even though, I understand SM's frustration, and I would be too. I think I would be more frustrated with my limitations of info sharing, than I would be with my students. And I also think  I would have a tendency to understand their frustrations as well. It's a two way street.

I feel bad for SM really, his health problems, his gag order, his aching desire to get this info out. I can't imagine living that way. It must be impossible to simply enjoy life with these thorns in his side.

At any rate, it's been good reading all of your posts and your experiences with this tech. Hope to keep you here for more of the fun.

Offline Grumpy

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2247
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2007, 01:01:11 AM »
I realize that you asked Bob, but I'd like to go ahead and add some comments toward your questions - maybe get some other people interested in this thread.

I have wound the bias coil (solenoid style) on a thin form (rolled plastic sheet) that fits over the ring so as to make it removable for changes and such.  By having this coil over the entire ring, the magnetic field inside the coil is applying a directional vector to the field of the ring.  Imagine the ring itself being stretched by pulling at it's center (even though there is really nothing in the center - imagine space stretching) - that is the effect of the bias coil.  Imagine the pulled space with a twist in it and you have an image of the vortex.

(hmm - that image gives me an idea...)

The info on this thread so far was enough for me to make the ring. 

Connections? 

Connect as required to make a rotating field - this varies depending on whether you are using pulses or full-wave signals.  With four windings at 90 degrees, you cross the connections of the opposing coils and each pair of opposing coils are fed a signal that is 90 degrees out of phase from the other one.  Which one leads/lags determines the rotation direction.  The coils will be 180 degrees out of phase with their opposing partners do to the crossed connections.  With pulses, you just hit them sequentially and tune phase as required to sweeten the field.  Just like stepper motors work.

Standing waves (magnetic) should be visible with ferrofluid or magnetic viewing film - assuming these materials do not vary the field so much that they alter the field and cause the pattern to collapse. 

Offline gn0stik

  • TPU-Elite
  • Sr. Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 302
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2007, 01:29:35 AM »
Well, I haven't comitted to building just yet, as I'm not in a position to commit to anything, with my move and all still in the works. However, if/when I do build, I would do it with the three coils 120 degrees each, and pulse with very short duty cycle (just enough to load the capacitance in the fets), and use some very sturdy drivers and with nice specs in order to get as sharp a rise and fall time as possible.

I probably wouldn't even try sines, and four "controls", as he noted that adding the fourth one doesn't seem to add anything spectacular to the mix. Besides,  I only have three F sources unless I build another one myself. Which, If I ever wanted this thing to run itself independent of lab equipment, I would have to eventually anyway. 

Oh and I forgot to ask bob... On your toroidal units, output is via the all encompassing secondary is that correct? Primaries are beneath that, and are fed signals. Then we have the biasing winding.

Thanks again.... Rich

Offline Grumpy

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2247
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2007, 03:36:15 AM »
three signals?

-----------------

EDIT: Bob did mention FET's.

Digital devices like shift registers, Johnson registers, and various others will produce very clean, sharp signals and only require a clock signal, yet they can drive several poles - 3 to 16 is easily done with one chip.  Then you use a delay line (they are on chips these days) or and RC phase shift combo to adjust the phase of each pole to get the honey out of the pot. 

Many ways to pull the voltage higher if desired.

Primaries are outside the secondary.

The trick is not in forcing power out, but in allowing it to force itself out.  Only a small signal is required to start and then it builds up - related to the frequency applied (the clock) to all of the poles - just like a motor.

Visuallize the arrangement of the primaries - see that there are two magnetic loops formed - see that they are rotating out of phase, but at the same rate - and then Whoa! - you get a standing wave pattern when everything is just right. Of course, this is just my interpretation and I have not verified it yet.

Here:  This will give you an idea - not exactly like this but similar concept.

http://scitation.aip.org/phf/gallery/2003-lorenz.jsp
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 04:43:56 AM by Grumpy »

Offline gn0stik

  • TPU-Elite
  • Sr. Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 302
Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2007, 03:52:40 AM »
I'll take your word for it, I was just going by bob's posts. However you seem to know more about it than I do.

I'll read up, but I don't understand why bob would say those things in his posts here if he didn't mean it. I just read them today, it's still pretty fresh. I'm pretty sure he specifically mentioned fets and drivers. Which, you are correct, require a bit more power to run. But I might have gotten context wrong or something.

I'll read through all the material I can get ahold of before commenting further.

I don't want to make unfounded assumptions.

Rich