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Author Topic: Talking about phase...  (Read 57644 times)

Offline bob.rennips

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Talking about phase...
« on: July 02, 2007, 02:16:56 AM »
Great to have you here, Bob Boyce.

Your projects with hydrogen generation are legendary!  That broken diode on the alternator that started it all off - are you able to give us the idea behind why the broken diode was causing the extra power anomaly you observed ?

As far as I could see the pulses from two of the 3 phase coils would each be fed back as DC pulse spikes into the coil with the broken diode.

With regards to phase could you expand on what aspect of the phase is important ?

Are we trying to get pulses exactly lined up ?
Sequentially staggered by a very small amount in time ?

My current thoughts are that the accurate physical placement of the coils in a circle is critical and that the phase timing is to do with how long it takes the magnetic field ( or is it electric field ?) from one coil to travel to the other coils. The idea being that the other coils are pulsed at exactly the right time to coincide with a certain point of the magnetic/electric waveform that is going past the coil. Question is what point in the waveform !!?

Thanks, Bob Rennips

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Talking about phase...
« on: July 02, 2007, 02:16:56 AM »

Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2007, 10:26:04 PM »
Thank you Bob, glad to be here.

The shorted rectifier in that 3 phase alternator caused a distorted AC waveform to be superimposed upon the DC output. The leading portion of the positive half of the sine was missing, so the rise to peak was very fast. The trailing edge dropped off rapidly as well, so the positive side of the waveform closely resembled a 20% duty cycle pulse centered at the peak of where the positive portion of the sine should have been. The negative portion of the sine was almost fully intact, and was the same regardless of RPM. After the positive pulse, there were a pair of fairly high amplitude positive spikes, with a low amplitude distortion between them. That distortion was very similar to the NMR "seed" pointed out by Otto. The timing relationship between the pulse, spikes, and "seed" varied greatly with RPM. At some RPMs, the "seed" would blend into other portions of the waveforms.

Honestly, at the time, I was not looking for any signs of overunity in this process. The only thing that I noticed as unusual was that if the waveform was at a specific frequency (RPM related) range, the electrolyte solution would respond by disassociating much more rapidly at much less input power.

Phase requirements will depend on the construction of the device. If the device is using one primary coil (I think you guys call it a control coil), then the phase requirements for that single phase peak performance is way different from the phase requirements for a 2 phase, 3 phase, or 4 phase device. I have built all 4, from single phase to 4 phase, and I was unable to measure any additional performance gain from a 4 phase design as compared to a 3 phase design. This confirmed my earlier experiments with the use of 3 frequencies vs 4 frequencies combined on a common primary.

Accurate primary coil placement and characteristics are absolutely essential to accurate phase reproduction from the drive electronics. Minor errors in these areas can be compensated for by fine tuning of the phase and amplidute of the drive signals, as long as it is kept in mind that errors in the windings will impact system efficiency.

There are two modes of operation of a true 3 phase toroidal power system. One is pulsed mode, and one is rotational mode. Each has different timing and phase requirements.

Pulsed mode is where the timing of the pulses are such that the entire toroid pulsates at the same frequency, all nearly in phase.

Rotational mode is where the timing of the pulses are about 120 degrees out of phase. These are driven in a Wye configuration.

Regardless of the mode, phase angle between drive signals can be used to create repeatable interference patterns in the EM field. Try to think of these interference patterns as EM holograms, that given the right conditions can interact with dominant energy. When the dominant energy is kicked, it can kick back - hard! Normally, the three states of dominant energy are in balance, and no net energy flow occurs. When unbalanced, energy flow can be initiated. Our goal is to create controlled imbalances, and maintain this control while we make use of the tapped energy to power loads.

Bob

Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 10:37:40 PM »
Hi Bob.B

I am glad you are here.  I had almost given up hope.. ;)

I believe that SM's device, like Teslas, involved an ELF stationary wave sweeping over the toroid, while the three frequencies meanwhile are making music.  I believe that this was done either naturally through tuning, or artificially creating the stationary wave through use of an oscillator as Tesla did.

In your experience with your device, have you seen anything to confirm this?  Have you tried rolling a stationary wave across the toroid while the frequencies are doing their thing?

Thank you and warm regards,
Bruce  :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 10:37:40 PM »
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Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2007, 06:23:00 AM »
Hello Bruce,

By stationary wave, are you referring to an ELF unmodulated carrier wave, an ELF scalar wave, or some other form of ELF wave?

I do pre-load the toroid with a DC bias on the secondary winding that covers the entire 360 degrees of the toroid. This is typically 155 to 160 VDC, and provides the dipole potential that I spoke of in my post on page 67 on the "Successful TPU-ECD replication !" thread. The incoming energy is superimposed upon this bias supply, which is sent to the load. This dipole potential does not have to be that high, but the higher it is, the more effective it becomes. Testing with this particular toroidal device has shown that bias supply potentials below 11.5 VDC result in below unity performance.

I have not read over the documents, or looked at photos, relating to SM's device, so I don't can't form an opinion as to what he was doing. When I first found this site, I only briefly scanned over the topics and read a few posts. I really didn't see anything interesting enough to catch my attention, as I had done much of that sort of research and experimentation back in the mid 90s.

After I was injured by a lightning strike in 1995, I mothballed the more dangerous radiant energy research until after I moved. I still have the Seike g-strain energy absorber I had built back then. As you probably already know, several years ago, I went back into the hydroxy gas research that I had stopped doing in the early 90s. The resonance drive system was needing updating for modern times, so that led me back into the toroidal research. I have made many improvements over the old system, some of which were to improve control and stability, and increase output. I'm not sure if my resonance drive system bears any resemblance to SM's device or not. I would have to look over the information available for his device(s) to see.

The PWM3 series waveform generator boards that I put into the public domain were to allow others to experiment with the 3 phase toroids for powering their cell stacks, but they are really just proof of concept devices with no phase control. This allowed them to be safer for others to experiment with, as it is difficult to accidentally happen upon an avalanche without precise control of phase. The NE556 was a poor choice, which I now regret, as the TL594 would have been more suitable back then. The HexController is the newer device on my bench. It is based on an Atmel AT-Mega48 microcontroller chip. At this time, that board is still proprietary, but I do have a couple of alpha testers working with a version that I intent to release into the public domain if all works out well with it. That board allows precise control of frequency, phase, and pulse duration.

I have long been intrigued with the anomolies of toroidal power systems, but on oupower.com the primary quest of others there has been for hydroxy gas systems. I am so tired of messing with that stuff, as I feel direct energy production makes a whole lot more sense than cracking water to burn in engines. Having the water there to soak up energy avalanches just made it so much easier and safer.

Control... We must maintain control of the reaction! Unfortunately, that can sometimes be a lot easier said than done ;-)

Bob Boyce

Offline bob.rennips

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 06:33:00 AM »
...
Rotational mode is where the timing of the pulses are about 120 degrees out of phase. These are driven in a Wye configuration.

Regardless of the mode, phase angle between drive signals can be used to create repeatable interference patterns in the EM field. Try to think of these interference patterns as EM holograms, that given the right conditions can interact with dominant energy. When the dominant energy is kicked, it can kick back - hard! Normally, the three states of dominant energy are in balance, and no net energy flow occurs. When unbalanced, energy flow can be initiated. Our goal is to create controlled imbalances, and maintain this control while we make use of the tapped energy to power loads.

Bob


Fascinating information. With the rotational mode pulses are the pulses still pulses with fast leading and trailing edges ? I assume that in rotational mode that we still need to go after what is in effect as fast an acceleration and decelleration as possible with each pulse, and not use 'standard' sinwaves ?

I've never come across the idea of three states of dominant energy or even dominant energy for that matter. Where can I find out more about this in the context of toroidal power units ?

thanks, Bob R.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 07:22:15 AM by bob.rennips »

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 06:33:00 AM »
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Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 07:46:36 AM »
Hello Bruce,

By stationary wave, are you referring to an ELF unmodulated carrier wave, an ELF scalar wave, or some other form of ELF wave?

I was thinking along the lines of Tesla, finding he could create stationary waves with an oscillator.  In his Colorado Springs Notes, Tesla noted that these
stationary waves "... can be produced with an oscillator," and added in
parenthesis, "This is of immense importance."  I believe that with SM's device, he has produces this stationary wave at 7.3 Hz.  I would love to know how the frequencies within the Toroid would react to that.  I hope that helps to explain that question.  :)


I do pre-load the toroid with a DC bias on the secondary winding that covers the entire 360 degrees of the toroid. This is typically 155 to 160 VDC, and provides the dipole potential that I spoke of in my post on page 67 on the "Successful TPU-ECD replication !" thread. The incoming energy is superimposed upon this bias supply, which is sent to the load. This dipole potential does not have to be that high, but the higher it is, the more effective it becomes. Testing with this particular toroidal device has shown that bias supply potentials below 11.5 VDC result in below unity performance.

I have not read over the documents, or looked at photos, relating to SM's device, so I don't can't form an opinion as to what he was doing. When I first found this site, I only briefly scanned over the topics and read a few posts. I really didn't see anything interesting enough to catch my attention, as I had done much of that sort of research and experimentation back in the mid 90s.

After I was injured by a lightning strike in 1995, I mothballed the more dangerous radiant energy research until after I moved. I still have the Seike g-strain energy absorber I had built back then. As you probably already know, several years ago, I went back into the hydroxy gas research that I had stopped doing in the early 90s. The resonance drive system was needing updating for modern times, so that led me back into the toroidal research. I have made many improvements over the old system, some of which were to improve control and stability, and increase output. I'm not sure if my resonance drive system bears any resemblance to SM's device or not. I would have to look over the information available for his device(s) to see.

The PWM3 series waveform generator boards that I put into the public domain were to allow others to experiment with the 3 phase toroids for powering their cell stacks, but they are really just proof of concept devices with no phase control. This allowed them to be safer for others to experiment with, as it is difficult to accidentally happen upon an avalanche without precise control of phase. The NE556 was a poor choice, which I now regret, as the TL594 would have been more suitable back then. The HexController is the newer device on my bench. It is based on an Atmel AT-Mega48 microcontroller chip. At this time, that board is still proprietary, but I do have a couple of alpha testers working with a version that I intent to release into the public domain if all works out well with it. That board allows precise control of frequency, phase, and pulse duration.

I would suggest you grab the .pdf of SM's clues from the locked thread entitled, "Read this first".  I think you would understand it far better than most.  And you continued help here is most appreciated.  Some of these guys have been working for a very, very long time on this project.

Also, knowing that your Toroid has had control problems in the past, SM's did as well until they developed the proper controller for it.  He warns us over and over of the potential for danger and the need for a frequency kill switch.  Overheat shutoff switch, and over voltage shutoff.  I look forward to the release of your controller.

If you are using frequency, phase, and pulse in your Toroid you already have very much in commen with SM's device.  Have you experimented along the lines of Identical signals/different sources, opposing one another, one slightly out of phase,in your Toroid? 


I have long been intrigued with the anomolies of toroidal power systems, but on oupower.com the primary quest of others there has been for hydroxy gas systems. I am so tired of messing with that stuff, as I feel direct energy production makes a whole lot more sense than cracking water to burn in engines. Having the water there to soak up energy avalanches just made it so much easier and safer.

Control... We must maintain control of the reaction! Unfortunately, that can sometimes be a lot easier said than done ;-)

Bob Boyce


Hello Bob.

Please see above, for replies!   

Thank you very much for the information you have already given us.  We will digest it.  Test it.  And use that which we can.

Warm Regards,
Bruce

Offline keithturtle

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 08:41:00 AM »
Great to have you on board, Bob!

Lotsa folks are working with the HHO production side of yer circuitry... IronHead's High voltage HHO thread seems to follow in yer "neutral plate" design.

The Chapps controllers use a microprocessor chip that can hold to 1 Hz.

Maybe now we can get all these loose ends tied up into a more easily replicated device.

Thanks for the advice,

Turtle

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 08:41:00 AM »
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Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2007, 03:16:47 PM »
Fascinating information. With the rotational mode pulses are the pulses still pulses with fast leading and trailing edges ? I assume that in rotational mode that we still need to go after what is in effect as fast an acceleration and decelleration as possible with each pulse, and not use 'standard' sinwaves ?

I've never come across the idea of three states of dominant energy or even dominant energy for that matter. Where can I find out more about this in the context of toroidal power units ?

thanks, Bob R.


Yes, as fast as possible in both rise and fall times. I refer to them as fast, sharp pulses. Sine waves have their uses, but the really freaky stuff begins to happen when you shove lots of fast pulses that have enough current at the gate to force the FET into full conduction fast, and load the gate enough to get a fast decay of the gate charge. Input capacitance of some of these devices can make this quite a challenge. Good strong drivers, lots of low ESR capacitance on the power pins for the drivers, bypass caps, and good operating voltage to get the fastest rise/fall times are all good design practices.

I think many that are stuck on established scientific dogma would disagree with me when I use the term dominant energy, but I don't really care. They can stick their collective heads in the sand all they want, as that does not change how this universe operates. Dominant energy is the dominant driving force force behind almost all of our observable/measurable energies. The three forms are Polar, Parapolar, and Diapolar, so named as to the roles they play in measured and observed interactions. By manipulation of very particular blends of the three, one can experience various effects such as anomolous heating, cooling, magnetic, gravitational, and electrical phenomonae. Dominant energy can even affect the quantum energy patterns that are responsible for the physical manifestation of energy that we know as matter. Matter = energy. I hope I've not gone too deep as to scare you.

Bob Boyce

Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2007, 03:43:03 PM »
Hello Bob.

Please see above, for replies!   

Thank you very much for the information you have already given us.  We will digest it.  Test it.  And use that which we can.

Warm Regards,
Bruce

Hello Bruce,

Ok, now I understand where you are coming from. What you are calling stationary waves are called standing waves. Absolutely, standing waves are the key to creating these EM holograms (interference patterns) that can induce effects to and from the dominant energy. I also use standing waves within the cell space of cell stacks to enhance the disassociation of water in the hydroxy gas project.

Inducing these effects to occur is an energy transmission process. In order to make full use of these effects requires opening a bi-directional path. This is so that not only can you manipulate energy to affect the dominant, but the dominant can affect the energy back in a manner that can be collected. The most common attempts are related to radiant energy phenomonae, and this brings about some inherent dangers. Strong, and even not so strong at some spectrum, EM fields can disrupt or damage the natural energy fields of living tissue, as well as tissue itself. There is so much dominant energy in every cc of space that there is no need to spread out the energy collection to a large area. By focusing fields inwards within the core of a toroid, and increasing the energy collection efficiency within that localized space/time, we can make very small, concentrated bubbles of disruption. In this manner, we can limit our exposure to the harmful effects of EM radiation.

Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2007, 03:43:03 PM »
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Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2007, 04:18:06 PM »
Great to have you on board, Bob!

Lotsa folks are working with the HHO production side of yer circuitry... IronHead's High voltage HHO thread seems to follow in yer "neutral plate" design.

The Chapps controllers use a microprocessor chip that can hold to 1 Hz.

Maybe now we can get all these loose ends tied up into a more easily replicated device.

Thanks for the advice,

Turtle
Hello Turtle,

1 Hz resolution is fine for bench test applications where you're just looking for proof of concept. Is it a fast and powerful enough microprocessor to monitor all the feedback points while maintaining tuning on the resonant reaction? It will require at least 0.01 Hz resolution to maintain a good phase control system for higher performance operation. This can make the difference between a 200 - 300% power efficient vs a 500 - 1000% power efficient system.

Just a good series cell design using catalytic reaction mode can hit 200% or so power efficiency.

I love the toroidal power systems for standalone operation. At at least they don't require maintaining and tracking the resonance reaction of the water to keep the system in tune for maximum hydroxy gas production.

Bob Boyce

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 04:25:50 PM »
@Boyce,

Are you seeing a rotational field and/or intertial effects?

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 04:25:50 PM »
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Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2007, 08:22:22 PM »
Rotational field, yes. Inertial effects, I don't know. I do not dare to handle the toroid when the waveform generator is powered up and driving the primaries.

Bob

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2007, 10:04:28 PM »
Are you using multiple poles (oriented inward like a motor or wrapped around the core like solenoid coils?)

OR

multiple wire segments (by segments, I mean more than one individual wire wrapped around the collector wire - side by side - perhaps with different frequencies - in any even they are side by side so a phase difference will exist and the field will move either direction or stand  - assuming the phases don't cancel)

Was cooling encountered with direction of rotation - say CW?

Things start to get a little odd at about 10 khz?

Offline keithturtle

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2007, 05:12:31 AM »
Hi Bob;

Thanks for the pointers.  At this early stage, I'm jes concerned obout proof of concept.  The fine point will come as I make progress. 

I wanna get involved in TPU, but will wait till I get grounded in HHO pulse production.

I'll follow this on the sidelines.

Yo, Grumpy;
Gots that plastic / caustic test ready to run later this week.

Gracias,

Turtle

Offline Bob Boyce

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Re: Talking about phase...
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2007, 07:37:29 PM »
Are you using multiple poles (oriented inward like a motor or wrapped around the core like solenoid coils?)

OR

multiple wire segments (by segments, I mean more than one individual wire wrapped around the collector wire - side by side - perhaps with different frequencies - in any even they are side by side so a phase difference will exist and the field will move either direction or stand  - assuming the phases don't cancel)

Was cooling encountered with direction of rotation - say CW?

Things start to get a little odd at about 10 khz?

My primaries are wound over the top of other windings on the toroidal core. I do not use a collector wire. The preload winding is wound at 90 degrees to the other windings, a secondary winding, and three primary windings wound on 120 degree centers. The deeper windings leads are brought out exactly centered between 2 of the 3 primaries. I use a little melted beeswax to secure the deeper windings, as this helps reduce winding movement/vibration/noise. The deeper windings are secured with a very tight wrap of winding tape, which can then be marked for accurate primary winding placement.

Anomolous effects that can be tuned for, at lower power levels, are excess heat production, heat absorbtion, power production, power absorbtion, gravitational perturbations,and magnetic anomolies. Higher power levels can result in small scale nuclear effects, such as matter transmutation at the atomic level, and even localized weather disruptions.

Many factors will determine what anomolies you can achieve, only part of which is related to any one specific frequency or set of frequencies. If you notice what I said, it is pulse shape that determines whether or not things can get freaky, not some arbitrary frequency point that you must cross. There are anomolies that can be found at frequencies well below 100 Hz. The size and inductance of your coil system can greatly determine what frequencies work well with that system. For example, laminated iron cores are great for lower frequencies as compared to ferrite cores, powdered iron cores, black sands cores, conductor ring cores, and air cores.

Trying to push cores beyond their ability can result in a lot of heat production in the cores. Eddy currents can waste energy, but sometimes they are needed to obtain a desired effect. Look at the ECD for example, where Otto is using eddy currents for heating of the aluminum heat sink above and beyond what the power MOSFETs can do. If the Mobius loops were not so radiant, these eddy currents would be much harder to obtain.

I really love the saying "the eye of the storm", as it is very applicable to a torus of swirling energy. Much more can be said on this, but there are already other threads pertaining to it.

Bob

 

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