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Author Topic: Energy from Still Air  (Read 12943 times)

Offline ltseung888

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Energy from Still Air
« on: June 29, 2007, 01:47:22 PM »
Air is not a fuel.  But Air is an Energy Carrier.  When we pump Air into a machine, Energy will be carried by Air into the machine.  The formula for the energy is
 
Energy of Air In = Pressure of Air In x Volume of Air In.

Energy of Air Out = Pressure of Air Out x Volume of Air Out

This difference is Energy of Air that can be used.  This is in addition to the Pump energy used to get the Air into the machine.

Details in the attached article by Forever Yuen.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Energy from Still Air
« on: June 29, 2007, 01:47:22 PM »

Offline pese

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2007, 02:07:50 PM »
this is the system , as the air-compressed cars drive.
but this is expensiv to compressing the air.

if you have enought energie lirke from wind -generators , you can
take an compresser , instead electric generator.

mor over this technic you find on leebell homepage
(here as member "freebell"

www.leebell.net

G.Pese

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 01:25:36 AM »
Dear Pese,

I enjoyed your website.  It has a lot of good ideas.  Our actual implementation of Energy From Air is to use the Energy from Electron Motion Pumps as the primary source of Energy.  They are more compact and more efficient than the Energy from Air pumps.

However, Energy from Air can produce Global Cooling.  This can reverse Global Warming.  Thus it has its place in history for this reason alone.

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 01:25:36 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 08:59:12 AM »
Not to be the nay sayer here, but when the air is compressed its heated, and when its released it cools down... So I imagine it would "ballance out" in the long run.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2007, 09:52:26 AM »
Dingus Mungus,

Like all the scientists who have been unconciously ruled by the Law of Conservation of Energy, you still have not realized the statement that Air is an Energy Carrier.

We already assume that when you compress the air, that energy is part of the pump energy.  This energy goes into the machine.  There is the additional energy from air which scientists have overlooked for centuries.

Consult your professors at MIT, Harvard, UCLA, Stanford or any of the top Universities if you are in USA.  Many already accepted the theory.

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2007, 09:52:26 AM »
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Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2007, 10:50:54 AM »
So what you're stating is the compression of air is a biased endothermic reaction? If not, what should I google to get that info from "professors at MIT, Harvard, UCLA, Stanford or any of the top Universities"? I'm just confused how it'll cause global cooling. The air is compressed by a mechanical source right? A biproduct of the pressure is heat, all the losses in the compressor are heat, the energy that powered the compressor had heat losses, using a resistor to collect power from the expanding gas is a heat loss, yet the release of the gas and its decompession temp drop will exceed all of the heat losses required to fill the tank. In a more to the point example, any electricity not converted back in to kinetic or electrical energy is heat loss, and even if you did convert all 100% of the electrical input energy to kinetic any friction is also a heat loss. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm only saying I don't understand how that would be possible. Please explain it more. Maybe walk us through a cycle of the devices operation.

~Dingus Mungus

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 02:47:24 PM »
Please read the attached file on the top post of this thread.
 Energyfromair1.doc (68 KB)

In the last diagram (the energy Picture), Please note that the
Input Energy has two terms: one is Pump Energy, the other is Energy of Air In.

The Output Energy also has two terms: one is usable energy, the other is Energy of Air Out.

The exact mechanism is as follows:
(1) In a simple beach pump, there are two one-way valves.  One allows air to get into the pump chamber (Valve In).  One allows air to get to the machine or tube with one-way valves (Valve Out).
(2) In the initial position, there will be air in the pump chamber.  When one presses on the pump, work is done.  The air from the pump chamber goes into the machine via Valve Out.  Some compression will take place.  We refer to this as the Pump Energy.

(3) When the hand is released, Atmospheric Pressure will force open the Valve In.  Air goes into the pump chamber.  Note that no work needs to be done by the hand.  This incoming air will have Pressure approximately equal to atmospheric and the Volume will be approximately equal to the pump chamber.
(4) Step (1) is repeated. There will be some work done in raising the air+water column up.  But the air in the tube between the one-way valves will be compressed. To be exact, the pressure downwards on a one-way valve in the tube is the Pressure of Air in Tube + Water Pressure in that portion of the Tube. 
(5) This Pressure of Air in Tube is higher than Atmospheric.

(6) At the highest position, air+water will come out.  This mixture will seperate.  The air will expand - thus Cooling Effect is achieved.  This is also confirmed by actual experiments.

In addition, the Energy of Air In need not be equal to Energy of Air Out.  This difference can be used to do work.  This is in addition to the Pump Energy supplied.

The above information was presented by Professor Wu from our group when he went to Harvard University in 2005.  The website is:
http://www.energyfromair.com
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 03:17:25 PM by ltseung888 »

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 02:47:24 PM »
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Offline hanker886

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2007, 04:36:12 PM »
Hmmm...we talk about "Chi". "Chi Gong".  Take a deep breath and feel the power...

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2007, 06:04:50 PM »
Ok now I can sort of understand where you're coming from...

Heat pumps use a similar technique by using a "low pressure zone" of boiling liquid gas to collect heat from the outside enviornment and in turn provide excess heat to the "high pressure zone". They have an average CoP>2... Because they produce so much extra heat!

You're esentially using air as a refrigerant then, your plan is to compress/heat a HPZ of water and air, thats brought in from the LPZ (the enviornment), and when this high temp/pressure liquid/gas is squeezed through an expansion valve the released fluid/gas is cooler than when it entered.

Now back to my point... What happens to all the heat from the compressed HPZ? Note that the heat radiating from the HPZ is equivlent to the incoming airs original temp plus the pressure is converted to heat and any and all losses of the step where work is done as well. If heat is not converted to some other form of energy, than its exchanged with the nearest cooler molecule. Energy can not be created or destroyed, so where is all the heat going? While heat is energy, just because you take in warm air and blow out cold air does not mean the overall temperature exchange has has dropped the ambient temp or that you've obtained that energy. It's like you said air is an energy carrier, all you're doing in the device desciption is telling the air to come on in and drop off all its heat in your HPZ! The heat still has to go some where.

I've reviewed the web site and can not find any physical prototypes or experimental logs. Its a bunch of box diagrams with inane "physics looking" stuff. Claiming things like a no loss perpetual pendulums with no proof (not even a drawing) just the physics-ish box diagram explanation nothing more. Also when I load the attached document it says can not load graphics filters... Anyone else having that problem as well?

I just want to know where all the heat goes???
And if you convert it to another kind of energy which one and how?


Sorry if I sound short, but look over your own posts you still have not explained where energy is havested in the device, or what happens to the heat... It's like you dodged the two most important issues all together.

~Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2007, 06:04:50 PM »
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Offline ltseung888

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2007, 02:19:17 AM »
Dear Dingus Mungus,

I see that you are focusing on the heat aspects of the machine.

Let me first talk about the work done by the machine.  Water is delivered to a great height.  The energy required is mgh.  The water goes up as part of the air+water fluid.  If we do a careful calculation and controlled experiment on the input pump energy (a one-tenth horse power air pump was used in our demonstration in Dec 2004), we would find that it could not account for the amount of energy required for the water delivered to the greater height (four floors.)

If the air pump did not provide all that energy, where does the extra energy come from?  (Answer: Energy from Still Air)

The same or similar experiments have been repeated dozens of times in Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Beijing and other parts of China.  I believe Professor Wu also did it at Harvard and MIT Universities.  Mr. Raymond Ting in Hong Kong has a working demonstration in his factory.  That device could deliver water to 14 floors.

Now let us focus on the heat side.  We measured the air temperature at the bottom floor and at the top floor when there were no delivery of water.  There were no appreciable difference.  We then put our thermometer at the outlet at the top where the air+water fluid came out.  The temperature dropped by a few degrees.

The experiment is extremely easy to do and repeat.  I can specify the exact beach pump, the size of the tubes, the number and spacing of the one-way valves, etc. if you are interested in repeating.  I can ask Mr. Ting to provide the pictures of every component etc.

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 07:10:02 AM »
I need you to know that I'm not trying to say this doesn't work, but I'm noticing only partial data and that why I'm asking the tough questions. Thank you for replying though.

Water is delivered to a great height.  The energy required is mgh.
That equation is for unrestricted output, but if the output involes restriction... AKA an expansion valve or one way check valves. You need to take the mechanical pressure being created in to account as work done as well. So that equation is incomplete in refrence to your device.

Quote
The water goes up as part of the air+water fluid.  If we do a careful calculation and controlled experiment on the input pump energy (a one-tenth horse power air pump was used in our demonstration in Dec 2004), we would find that it could not account for the amount of energy required for the water delivered to the greater height (four floors.)
Four stories high doesn't mean anything untill we know the diam of the pipe carrying the fluid, or the output in GPM or something similar. As you can imagine moving liquid up four stories in a 1/8" tube can be done with the pressure your lungs can generate, but a 3" in diam tube requires a lot more PSI. Also if you're pumping it up four stories, but its only escaping the tube at < 1 LPM, then as you can imagine it would be quite inefficent. So as you are probably begining to understand, most of the data you've posted is incomplete to the point where I can not calculate anything about its efficiency.

Quote
If the air pump did not provide all that energy, where does the extra energy come from?  (Answer: Energy from Still Air)
What energy? You put in electrical power and got out mechanical power. To further my point, I don't even know how much power you put in. All you've said was 1/10 horse motor, but no explanation of actual power comsuption. On a purely physics level undestanding a 1/10 horse is roughly 75 watts. 75watts in 100% efficient evriornment will move .68 liters up 11 meters every second. As you can see I need to know your flow rate to calculate any efficiency rating. Then we can calculate how much of the energy was used to move the water, and how much of it was converted to losses.

Quote
The same or similar experiments have been repeated dozens of times in Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Beijing and other parts of China.  I believe Professor Wu also did it at Harvard and MIT Universities.  Mr. Raymond Ting in Hong Kong has a working demonstration in his factory.  That device could deliver water to 14 floors.
Unless its more than 40% efficent, than I know of a dozen pumps on the market capable of pumping water to higher floors. So that claim means very little at this point. Too much missing data like flow rate and power consumtion.

Quote
Now let us focus on the heat side.  We measured the air temperature at the bottom floor and at the top floor when there were no delivery of water.  There were no appreciable difference.  We then put our thermometer at the outlet at the top where the air+water fluid came out.  The temperature dropped by a few degrees.
But did you notice the pressurized vessel that carries the water went up a few degrees? I'm not debating the output air can be dropped in temperature, but you're missing the point that this effect is only realized through prssure which generates heat as a byproduct in the HPZ.

Quote
The experiment is extremely easy to do and repeat.  I can specify the exact beach pump, the size of the tubes, the number and spacing of the one-way valves, etc. if you are interested in repeating.  I can ask Mr. Ting to provide the pictures of every component etc.
That would be great. The more eleborate the data set, the more exact our analysis and replication. Actually if he'd be interested in coming to the forum to explain the devices abilities with the missing data, then I could quickly determine CoP and or efficiency.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, most time people just asssume I'm trying to "discredit" them, when in reality its just the opposite. I need that data to proove what you're saying is true. I would prefer that you be correct, but I won't just blindly accept it without crunching the numbers myself or seeing it in action.

~Dingus Mungus
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 07:45:24 AM by Dingus Mungus »

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 07:10:02 AM »
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2007, 03:52:32 PM »
What about a sterling cycle engine?
Also, in your first post, you should mention temperature.
This is most central to all thermodynamics.
Paul.

Offline ltseung888

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2007, 12:56:03 AM »
Dear Dingus Mungus,

I would like to point out my situation and limitations.  I have a BSc in Physics and a MSc in Aeronautics from Western Universities.  I am retired and do not have any huge financial backing.  However, I am a member of the Hong Kong Inventor Association.  I can motivate other members to help in the experiments.  I no longer do any experiments myself.  The last attempt in operating the electric drill almost blinded me.

Lee Cheung Kin, the co-patent inventor and owner, is over 72 tears old.  He was one of the first Russia trained Chinese Rocket Engineers.  He has excellent connections with many Chinese Technical Officials.  Thus we had visits to the top Chinese Universities and the China Patent Office.  His last  experimental attempt was wracking a USD$500 toy helicopter totally in its maiden flight.

Please see our draft press release in
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2482.msg37417.html#msg37417

We treat energy from air as an indirect technique of extracting energy from gravity.  We actively worked on it for a few weeks in 2004.  Then Lee discovered the secret of extracting (Lead Out) energy from gravity via the pulsed pendulum.  I extended it to vibrations and rotations.  The theory was later expanded to electron motion energy that includes magnetic, electric and electromagnetic. 

We gave the Energy from Air research responsibilities to Mr. Raymond Ting after applying for China Patents.  Mr. Ting took it up and won a Silver Award in one of the recent Invention Shows in 2006 in China.  He is working with an environmental group to further this research.  I believe the latest prototype from him uses 1 inch pipies.

He does not read or write English.  Thus there will be delay in translating his information.  Please be patient and tolerate the delays.

You can read the above draft press release article meanwhile.  Please note that we are more interested in removing the Law of Conservation of Energy as a Roadblock for OU inventions.  We believe the Lee-Tseung Lead Out theory will be the guiding light for almost all OU inventions.

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2007, 03:25:29 AM »
Thank you again for your prompt reply...

I'm pleased to hear that there are existing functional prototypes and that they have been publicly demonstrated. Since you are a educated engineer I now know that you must fully understand why those questions I asked are vital to our understanding of the devices operation. I can appriciate the language barrier though as I can only speak english myself. Can you please continue to post any other technical details and or test data you ecounter or translate? Much of the required information is still missing. I want to try and understand the device, and in some thought experiments I realized perhaps the heat and expansion works in an almost gradient effect between each set of check valves conveting the heat in to kinetic velocity (spray). Altho it still doesn't seem like a very sound theory in my mind... I hope you will return with more complete data and diagrams soon, so that our fellow members can attempt replication and verification of the device and any observed anomolous effects. Thank you for continuing to take the time to attempt answering my questions.

I hope we hear from you,
~Dingus Mungus

P.S. Just a list of numbers you may want to request about the device:
-water/air output rates
-RMS power consumption
+output hieght
+inner diam of output pipe
-measured temperature differential

Thanks again!

Offline Dingus Mungus

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Re: Energy from Still Air
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2007, 04:15:48 AM »
Hmmmm... I was just thinking about the numbers I do have, and I calculated that a pipe with a 1"id that is 36 feet tall, will hold a volume of roughly 339.3 cubic inches or 12.25 psi of back pressure. Are you sure this perticular 1"x432" pipe was compressed with a 1/10 horse electric pump? I'll have to try out some experiments soon with capilary expansion in this fasion. I'm still quite skeptical about the heat decrease of the equation, but I'm curious to see how it loads the compessor differently when compared to a normal section pvc pipe. Is there a minimum height or number of divisions before the effects are observable?

Thanks again,
~Dingus Mungus

Wow... I may have just understood the concept. Each valved division may act like a HPZ and LPZ hybrid with check valves acting as expansion valves aka capillaries. It'll be a few months before I'll have the room to test this, but I will investigate what I can based on what you've told me so far.

 

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