Language:
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.
 Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here: https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

Custom Search

### Author Topic: Scope shots of clean kicks  (Read 29314 times)

#### Jdo300

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 682
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2007, 06:38:31 PM »
Hi Bob.R,

I definitely agree with your thoughts on adding the kicks. Once I perfected my harmonic pulse circuit and fed the output through a small transformer, I saw some VERY interesting kicks on the secondary which had the same exact harmonic pulses that you showed. Though I was only pulsing at around 15 kHz at the time. Here's a scope dump from the setup:

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2535.0;attach=9995;image)

I noticed that you only get this effect with a clean square wave with a VERY fast rising edge. These other harmonic pulses are definitely a little extra input from the environment that we can pulse on top of to gain more on the output. Like you said, that explains the purpose of using two frequencies that are harmonics of each other.... And the closer you get to the pulse harmonics lining up, the more energy! P = V^2 / R. so if we combine two waves to get double the voltage, we actually get 4 times the power at that point in time.

Also, as for getting nice clean pulses, I also want to add that you should use shielded coax to run from the control board to the MOSFET gates (if the MOSFETs are separated from the rest of the board. Another thing is NOT to use the solder less breadboards because they have a lot of capacitance and can make the harmonic signals all goto garbage once you get up into the higher frequencies. From my experience, you really only need to worry about the signals coming out of the MOSFET drivers, so make sure the wires for that are well shielded/isolated from each other and use the proper caps specked out in the data sheet. For that, I am able to get very clean square waves out of it all the way up to about 800 kHz before I start to see ringing in the line.

God Bless,
Jason O

#### CTG Labs

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 397
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2007, 07:48:17 PM »
Hi Jason,

Can you confirm you can see these pulses without the transformer?  I mean so we can discount these as Soliton pulses due to sloshing of the bloch walls in the core material?

Thanks,

Dave.

#### bob.rennips

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 182
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2007, 02:08:41 AM »
Hi Jason,

Great looking kick!

Good advice on using coax. I got my best square waves with the mosfets within 1-2cm of the driver chips. The driver chip to mosfet connection is definately key.

Do you know why the train of follow up pulses are close together but start a fair distance from the main pulse ?

The transformer - is this a self wound air core bifilar or are you looking at say a small audio transformer ?

Cheers ,Bob

#### eldarion

• TPU-Elite
• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2007, 08:59:21 AM »
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

#### Jdo300

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 682
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2007, 09:29:58 AM »
Hi Dave & Bob,

I was using a small transformer when I did that test. At the time I was simply testing my new control circuit to make sure it was functioning correctly. I plan to do some more testing on this to see if I can get the same pulses on an air-cored coil.

God Bless,
Jason O

#### bob.rennips

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 182
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2007, 09:36:18 AM »
Way nice set up - Eldarion.

Can't wait to hear how it all goes.

#### Jdo300

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 682
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2007, 09:38:46 AM »
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Eldarion,

Nice PCB man! Just a warning to you though. You NEED to shield the thing or it will be worthless when you fire up your TPU. If the coils are pulsed with a fast enough rise time, you will get LOTS of RF emissions from the coils which will easily booger up the signals going into your board. I suggest placing the board FAR away from the TPU and run coax cables to a separate board with the MOSFETs on it. By the way, are you using MOSFET drivers?

God Bless,
Jason O

#### eldarion

• TPU-Elite
• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2007, 09:58:37 AM »
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Eldarion,

Nice PCB man! Just a warning to you though. You NEED to shield the thing or it will be worthless when you fire up your TPU. If the coils are pulsed with a fast enough rise time, you will get LOTS of RF emissions from the coils which will easily booger up the signals going into your board. I suggest placing the board FAR away from the TPU and run coax cables to a separate board with the MOSFETs on it. By the way, are you using MOSFET drivers?

God Bless,
Jason O

Jason,

Thanks!  I will definitely try to shield it with something (not sure what yet).  Yes, I am using MOSFET drivers, specifically Maxim's MAX627 drivers.  They are the reason this TPU has not been fired up yet, as they are still in the mail system somewhere...

I should have some results in the next few days for everyone.  I hope this is it; every time I go over SM's words and his prototypes I keep seeing this design.

Before I forget, I should mention that I am using diodes to isolate the driven coils during the back-EMF spike, instead of using them to short out the spike.  I am curious if this will allow the spike to couple into the other coils better and help the conversion process.  This fits in nicely with the discovery of a diode on one of SM's prototypes (I came up with this idea separately).

Eldarion

#### bob.rennips

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 182
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2007, 11:45:41 AM »
Well, here is a pic of my TPU v4.  I have yet to receive (and therefore install) my MOSFET drivers, but when I do, I just have to plug them into two IC sockets and fire it up!

The board on the back is a delta-sigma ADC, and the MOSFETs on the driver board are IRF640s.

Hi Eldarion,

Nice PCB man! Just a warning to you though. You NEED to shield the thing or it will be worthless when you fire up your TPU. If the coils are pulsed with a fast enough rise time, you will get LOTS of RF emissions from the coils which will easily booger up the signals going into your board. I suggest placing the board FAR away from the TPU and run coax cables to a separate board with the MOSFETs on it. By the way, are you using MOSFET drivers?

God Bless,
Jason O

Jason,

Thanks!  I will definitely try to shield it with something (not sure what yet).  Yes, I am using MOSFET drivers, specifically Maxim's MAX627 drivers.  They are the reason this TPU has not been fired up yet, as they are still in the mail system somewhere...

I should have some results in the next few days for everyone.  I hope this is it; every time I go over SM's words and his prototypes I keep seeing this design.

Before I forget, I should mention that I am using diodes to isolate the driven coils during the back-EMF spike, instead of using them to short out the spike.  I am curious if this will allow the spike to couple into the other coils better and help the conversion process.  This fits in nicely with the discovery of a diode on one of SM's prototypes (I came up with this idea separately).

Eldarion

I think we are all on the same page! Fantastic. It's good to know that others have come to the same conclusion regarding raising the inherent capacitance. Brnbrade's recent experiments also point to this being an important aspect.

The isolated coils hold, at the right frequency, in my case 300+V for the whole OFF period. The distance of influence on other metal objects is several feet. But this is as a voltage potential not as a current.

Will this held electric field transfer from one coil to the next ?
Will the electric field rotate at high speed ?

Will Eldarion's drivers arrive before the weekend ?!!

I've no idea how electric fields are going to mix in the center of Eldarion's TPU but I think we are all going to find out soon!!!!

Way to go. Good luck. Take things slow - we want you in one piece to report back!!

Cheers, Bob.

PS. Please let this be a success - my wife already thinks I'm completely loopy for spending the money I do on kit and chips and wire and...

All my kit comes by mail order - you see my wife's face each time the postie arrives with more stuff and I tell her it's a set of driver chips. "I thought you got those last week ?". "Er needed more - the last set er burnt out!!"....

« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 10:31:11 AM by bob.rennips »

#### Thaelin

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1081
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2007, 03:20:23 PM »
Hi Bob:
Could you tell me how you have the diodes hooked up.  As in are both cathodes towards the ground side? Would seem correct to me. Just want to be sure.

sugra

#### bob.rennips

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 182
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2007, 04:23:50 PM »
Hi Bob:
Could you tell me how you have the diodes hooked up.  As in are both cathodes towards the ground side? Would seem correct to me. Just want to be sure.

sugra

Yes. See attached.

EDIT: Attachment edited to remove the incorret 1H label on the inductor and to add information concerning using insulation.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 09:17:51 AM by bob.rennips »

#### Thaelin

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1081
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2007, 04:34:39 PM »
@Bob:
Is this a sim or real life? 1 Henry is a really big coil   lmao. Kind of reminds me of HS when our teacher made reference to 12 Farads in a cap. Now a days, not so out there.

sugra

#### bob.rennips

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 182
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2007, 05:16:45 PM »
@Bob:
Is this a sim or real life? 1 Henry is a really big coil   lmao. Kind of reminds me of HS when our teacher made reference to 12 Farads in a cap. Now a days, not so out there.

sugra

This is real life - 100% on a real scope results.

Try it - it's repeatable with any coil as long as you use two diodes and sweep the frequency to find the point where the held voltage is largest.

I used the sim. applet as it's easy to draw out a diagram to ensure there was no communication problem.
1H is the default value the sim. puts on any inductor drawn - I didn't notice it was just a quick drawing for you!

#### giantkiller

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2791
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2007, 05:22:45 PM »
I think the follow shot is of a diode in the 6 inch tpu.

Great post Bob! This will be easy to implement in the current ECD.
This same diode could be in the wire bundle of the SM17 at the inner toroids. It is wrapped in tape but we've seen this shape of leads before in our electronic adventures of life.

The (17_32)? in the 17.zip post by Marco is a clear shot. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,712.msg37542.html#msg37542
I am still curious about the SM17 having matching pairs of circuits. Only 2 sets, like the coil is spilt in left and right halves and 2 sets in each half of the circuit.
Only 2 of everything. Shown symmetrically too.

I am interested in what you think.

--giantkiller.

#### bob.rennips

• elite_member
• Full Member
• Posts: 182
##### Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2007, 06:25:53 PM »
I think the follow shot is of a diode in the 6 inch tpu.

Great post Bob! This will be easy to implement in the current ECD.
This same diode could be in the wire bundle of the SM17 at the inner toroids. It is wrapped in tape but we've seen this shape of leads before in our electronic adventures of life.

The (17_32)? in the 17.zip post by Marco is a clear shot. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,712.msg37542.html#msg37542
I am still curious about the SM17 having matching pairs of circuits. Only 2 sets, like the coil is spilt in left and right halves and 2 sets in each half of the circuit.
Only 2 of everything. Shown symmetrically too.

I am interested in what you think.

--giantkiller.

I can't tell if there's a diode in the SM17 pic - too indistict IMHO. I do believe that diodes are a part of the smaller unit so it makes sense they would also be part of the larger unit.

You are definately on the money on everything being in pairs. Those two yellow cylinders in the center are 1000 volt caps IMO. The two Black capacitors right next to the coil have resistors soldered to the leads. They are right next to the coil because THEY HAVE TO BE. It would make more sense to mount them in the middle otherwise. And why are they near the coil ? - because they form an LCR, one for each coil, and the lead lengths are critical for the resonance. All IMHO of course. Alternatively the caps could be smoothing caps and the resistors are there to limit ringing on the output ?

One of the cut-coil pics showed the top and bottom coils looking like horizontal wound flat ribbon wire. I'm thinking the symmetry is top - bottom, as opposed to left- right. This might explain why this TPU is so thin and tall. Tall to separate the coils. Wasn't there some strange 'wooly' like material between the top and bottom coils ? Perhaps there is also a capacitance effect going on between the top and bottom coils.

I think the small toroids in the middle are high-frequency choke coils.