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Author Topic: Scope shots of clean kicks  (Read 25327 times)

Offline bob.rennips

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Scope shots of clean kicks
« on: June 26, 2007, 05:07:47 PM »
Using Jason's driver circuit - driver TC4427/MIC4427 into mosfet IRF840.
No diode across the coil.

Scope probe set to x10, is attached to 1 side of the coil.
Coil is 1cm diameter.
Number of turns of wire is irrelevant, as is gauge of wire.
Core - I've tried both with and without a magnet - both times I can tune to a specific freq. to give a nice clean kick.

12V+ goes to coil and then to MOSFET. The mosfet is switching to Earth (negative).

Dual trace scope was used.
Top trace shows the input square wave - 5V/DIV
Bottom trace is the coil probe - 50V/DIV because of x10 probe.
Timebase is 2microseconds.
Frequency to mosfet driver is 146khz.

1st image - single kick each time the coil goes off. No real noise on input or output. Peak goes way off the top and is approximately 650V.
2nd image - same as 1st image except x10 magnification button is pressed for TIMEBASE on scope. This allows the detail to be shown. As you can see there really is no noise nor ringing.
3rd image - this is a typical scope shot before getting to the correct frequency - plenty of noise and oscillations.
4th image - hardware shot showing the coil and probe placement.

I think the kick SM talks about is the BEMF but at a frequency where the kick is nice and clean, as per my scope shots.

NOTE: The internal diode in the IRF840 stops the kick getting anywhere. This means coil connections must be carefully connected to ensure kicks are routed to other coils before going back to the mosfet - if this is what you want.

In the coil shown I removed the magnet and wrapped another coil through the existing coil. i.e. A coil wrapped at 90degree. This coil picks up the kick (100V peak) BUT NOT the turning ON of the coil.

However, if you feed this kick to 1 coil of a bifilar coil and have another pulse from your pulsing circuitry occuring at this time, then the kick gets added to the pulsing pulse to generate a larger pulse.

So how do you time the second pulse, to coincide with the kick. Easy! You just need a second pulse at twice the frequency!! This time you get a large kick. And if you feed this into another bifilar coil and pulse this coil at the right time... and again you would need to pulse this coil at 4 times the initial frequency. Which is very near to what SM said to do. Feed this pulse back into the 1st bifilar coil and you now have a runaway feedback in place. WATCH OUT!! It will also have a rotational magnetic field. This is what I'll be trying next weekend - some of us have to work!

Cheers, Bob.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 05:37:40 PM by bob.rennips »

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Scope shots of clean kicks
« on: June 26, 2007, 05:07:47 PM »

Offline bob.rennips

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 06:22:51 PM »
I've attached a schematic diagram of how I think the coils should be connected.

Each coil set is a bifilar coil (control coil) and wrapped around this at 90 degrees is the kick pickup coil (collector coil). In the diagram I've shown them as three seperate coil units, which should be placed 120 degrees apart around a circle.

Now consider how these would be combined together to give an SM style TPU.

1. The three kick pickup collector coils are stacked vertically on top of each other.
2. Around each collector coil is one bifilar coil placed 120 degree apart from each other.

This is EXACTLY what SM has described and is identical to what we are doing in the schematic. It will create a rotating magnetic field.

3. Wrap toroid style another coil to intersect the rotating magnetic field for the DC output.


I've shown the example using 40, 80 and 160Hz. In fact any combination of frequencies will work where the off coincides with an ON in the right order. You could use only two coil units rather than three and just invert the original turning on signal. Or you could have 4 coil sets and have 2 pair turning on at the same time on opposite sides of the circle. Again you'd only need the one signal and use the invert to turn the other pair on.

The 3 coil set I've described requires that the frequency and hence the width of the final pulse be smaller than the width of the kick pulse in order to get a runaway situation. When this condition is met the kick is still rising when the original 40Hz signal turns on - which obviously completes the feedback loop. This means if the 80 and 160 Hz signals are generate by a divide by 2 circuit, you only need one master frequency. And as long as this frequency is kept slightly off tune (where have I heard that before!) and you control how much of the kick from the 3rd coil set is fed back into the first coil set, then everything is kept under control.


Offline Earl

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Thanks Bob, great experiment
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 06:54:40 PM »
Bob,

you are thinking along my lines.  Could you please graph three 40 Hz traces, each offset 120 degrees, followed by first and second harmonics of each of these three.  Nine traces in all.  Would like to see how these look like when 9 traces are lined up vertically.

If you could also do this for the 4-coil arrangement, with 4x times 40Hz, offset 90 degrees, with 1st & 2nd harmonics of these four, total 12 traces, I would greatly appreciate it.

Good week-end research, keep it up.

Regards, Earl

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Thanks Bob, great experiment
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 06:54:40 PM »
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Offline Earl

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Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 07:58:15 PM »
Bob,

I think I can draw up a schematic of a simple circuit to do the pulsing at the correct time, with no need to do coil relaying..  Will try to do it this evening.

Even so, keeping 90 degree coils, even tri-filar excitation coils allows more and diverse experiments and measurements.

Regards, Earl

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 08:22:11 PM »
MC14521B frequency divider - cost about 75 cents.

(could use a quad flip flop also, if you only need three freqs)

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 08:22:11 PM »
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Offline Earl

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Digital divider with Q and Q bar outputs
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2007, 11:48:27 PM »
Bob,

please see my circuit at
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37072.html#msg37072

it should do everything necessary, without coil relaying.

Grumpy,
because of phase relationships it is absolutely necessary to have both inverted and non-inverted outputs from each stage and make choices as appropriate.  A simple binary divider will not work.

Regards, Earl

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 01:40:11 AM »
@Earl,

If phase is that critical then you will need a means to adjust it.



Oh look, four flip flops - at least I got that right.


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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 01:40:11 AM »
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Offline bob.rennips

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 07:46:00 AM »
Bob,

I think I can draw up a schematic of a simple circuit to do the pulsing at the correct time, with no need to do coil relaying..  Will try to do it this evening.

Even so, keeping 90 degree coils, even tri-filar excitation coils allows more and diverse experiments and measurements.

Regards, Earl

The coil relaying is to transfer the KICK/BEMF from one coil to the next coil - it's not to time the turning on of the next coil. *** In fact I believe you need the other coil already turned on when the BEMF starts to appear ***. I think when a magnetic field collapses you get the BEMF in the wire of the coil where the current was removed - this is traditionally accepted as what happened BUT secondly the collapsing field also causese something else to happen - which is why we can pick up this energy at a coil at 90 degrees to the coil where the magnetic field is collapsing. Perhaps we are talking about magnetic particles ? The trick is that once this energy appears at the time the BEMF appears, you have to already have set up a path for these particles to flow to. This is why you need the next pulse already starting to happen. i.e. An expanding magnetic field attracts magnetic particles - via the coil connections - from a collapsing magnetic field. So the flow between the kick collecting coil and the next bifilar coil is not traditional electricity - it is something else - that is why I'm thinking magnetic particles. This is why the phase is so important - the timing has to be perfect.

I touched one of the bare wires and it has a distinctive heating effect - as if touching a soldering iron BUT the enamelled part of the wire is only slightly warm to the touch. Also with a soldering iron your finger blisters, but with this there is no apparent damage. I've had RF burns and relatively HV burns before but this does not have the same 'quality'. Time for me to be more careful.

Because the pickup is wound 90 degree to the bifilar coils, this is not an induction pickup of energy - it's 'something' else. So what is happening is you pick up the 90 degree energy for free and then combine it via the next coils bifilar, so that there is more energy in the next coil, which inturn creates a larger KICK/BEMF, and so on around the circle. Until you get to a point where the collected energy of the spikes is more than that being put into pulsing the coils. At this point you now have a high speed rotating magnetic field that can be intercepted in the traditional way to generate high voltage and current.

I like your circuit a lot -thanks for putting this together - I'll get the waveforms done ASAP, but we're looking at the weekend now.

I thinks we are makings the progress, no ?  Ha ha !

Offline bob.rennips

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Re: Digital divider with Q and Q bar outputs
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 08:01:02 AM »
Bob,

please see my circuit at
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37072.html#msg37072

it should do everything necessary, without coil relaying.

Grumpy,
because of phase relationships it is absolutely necessary to have both inverted and non-inverted outputs from each stage and make choices as appropriate.  A simple binary divider will not work.

Regards, Earl

hi Earl, I can see how the divide by 2 bit works. But what determines the width of the pulse ? It looks like the pulse width will be really small ? or is it 50/50 duty ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Digital divider with Q and Q bar outputs
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 08:01:02 AM »
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Offline bob.rennips

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 08:02:41 AM »
MC14521B frequency divider - cost about 75 cents.

(could use a quad flip flop also, if you only need three freqs)


Thanks. I like components that are under a $!

Offline bob.rennips

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 08:30:36 AM »
Things I'd like to be able to do but can't!

1. Adjustable pulse width on a per coil basis - so that each coil is only on for the minimum amount of time to bring the magnetic field up to a certain level.

2. Rough phase setting - ability to set the approximate phase between coils. So if you have 3 coils you have 120 degree out of phase and 4 coils 90 degrees out of phase.

3. Fine phase setting - what is important is the lining up of the turn-off times of one coil with the turn on times of another coil. The ability to adjust the pulse width will also screw up the turn-off alignment. I'd like to be able to adjust the phase so if i needed a certain amount of overlap between the turn-off of one coil and the turning-on of the next coil I could do this. The overlaps makes this much more difficult to achieve electronically I think.

The above is more to show what I think are the timing considerations in having a fully tuned setup. I think the setup above could be a few months into the future. I think careful winding of coils to make as near as identical as possible will alleviate the need for per coil tuning. The above circuit will come into its own once we have a working proof of concept as it will allow quickly wound, non-identical coils to be used, in replication attempts.

I think problems with replication (e.g. Otto et al) are down to timing differences due to slightly dissimilar coils. GK's precise measuring of wire length, placements of coils, etc. could produce some interesting results assuming of course that Otto's results don't require slightly different coils in order to achieve the correct timing!

Cheers, Bob.



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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 08:30:36 AM »
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Offline Earl

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New and expanded circuit
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 09:33:19 AM »
Hi Bob,

in answer to your above posts, please see

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37117.html#msg37117

hehehe I like your rhyme.

Regards, Earl

Offline bob.rennips

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Re: New and expanded circuit
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 09:43:10 AM »
Hi Bob,

in answer to your above posts, please see

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37117.html#msg37117

hehehe I like your rhyme.

Regards, Earl

Very nice! Thanks Earl, much appreciated.

Offline Earl

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Re: Scope shots of clean kicks
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2007, 09:50:08 AM »
Hi Bob,

here is the further evolution of my schematic, see

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg37124.html#msg37124

regards, Earl

Offline Earl

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Recommendations
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 10:05:34 AM »
Hi Bob,

I would suggest limiting the adjustment range of the firing point by not using a C, only a low value 10-turn poti.  Too much adjustment range may get you lost.

Another question that pops into mind is when the beast finally starts putting out serious juice, whether to scale up physically or, for example, use 8 coils instead of 3 or 4.

I will be generating more schematics concerning 3 and 4 phase generation using a shift register.  The advantage of a SR is that there are no propagation delays from stage to stage, all stages are clocked simultaneously, even at 30 MHz.

Regards, Earl

 

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