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Author Topic: gravity wheel question  (Read 7526 times)

Offline alibaba

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gravity wheel question
« on: June 26, 2007, 10:52:57 AM »
simple question :)

in the attached image:

a rotating wheel. 12 arms ( 1 meter each ) . a ball (1kg) attached with a smaller arm . The green arrow shows the desired direction of rotation. in grey position the ball is resting on the long arm.in red position the ball is hanging by the small arm due to gravity.

my question is : what will be the result when the mass of upper most ball shifts from grey to red postion. will it influence the rotation direction of the wheel ? i have no illusion that the shifting of the mass from grey to red and back when when it reaches the appropriate position will in anyway mak the wheel turn. what i need to figure out ia a method which will allow the mass f the balls to shift from their grey-red-grey postions without disrupting the rotation of the wheel.

i hope i have clearly outlined my question.

thanks to every one.

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gravity wheel question
« on: June 26, 2007, 10:52:57 AM »

Offline TheOne

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 02:26:35 PM »
the problem with gravity wheel is they will always "balance" and never work, it take the same force for the mass to go up and go down, to get an unbalance effect you need to use external device such as hydrolic/compressed air to move some of the mass to shift a mass

Offline pequaide

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 01:00:18 AM »
Add an extra sphere to the descending side; keep all of them against the post. This will cause an acceleration 1/13 that of a lone sphere. After the extra sphere descends one meter the wheel will have a velocity of 1.228 m/sec and 15.97 units of momentum. If you transfer all the momentum back to the extra sphere and release it, it will raise 13 meters. The momentum transfer can (according to my data) be achieved by the cylinder and spheres experiment.

The distance formula is used to determine the distance an object will rise if it has a certain velocity.   d = 1/2at?   t? = v?/a? therefore d = ? v?/a 

So: if an object has a velocity of 1 m/sec it will rise .051 meters.

 If an object has a velocity of 4 m/sec it will rise .8155 meters.

.8155 /.051 = 16

So if the Law of Conservation of Momentum is true for the cylinder and spheres experiment (where, in one model, four units of mass give all their motion to one units of mass) it quadruples its energy content in a few tenths of a second. 

Also; if one unit of mass accelerates 4 units of mass (as in an Atwood?s machine) while falling .2039 meters, it will have a velocity of 1 m/sec. 1/2v?/a or √(2 * 9.81/4 * .2039) = 1 m/sec.  In this why only one object is being raised and lowered, but you get the same increase to 400% of the original energy. Because: if the now moving Atwood gives all the motion back to the mass that was dropped it will raise .8155 meters.

The time over which the force (of the ? extra mass) acts in the Atwood to drop .2039 m is the same as the freefall time for a dropped distance of .8155 m.  Reverse freefall (the trip back upward) also requires the same amount of time.

If a quantity of motion is caused by a certain force applied for a certain period of time, one would expect that an equal amount of force would have to be applied in the opposite direction for an equal amount of time in order that the motion is stopped. This process does not violate Newtonian Physics; F = ma, The Law of Conservation of Momentum, Newton?s Three Laws of Motion, etc... It does however; make energy.

A cycling machine would be very impressive, but none will deny that a one kilogram object moving 4 m/sec has four times as much energy as four kilograms moving 1 m/sec. Experimenters only need to verify that Newtonian Physics holds in the cylinder and spheres experiments. 

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 01:00:18 AM »
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Offline Mr.Entropy

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 03:50:36 AM »
I see no one answered your question, so:

my question is : what will be the result when the mass of upper most ball shifts from grey to red postion. will it influence the rotation direction of the wheel ?

The forward torque on the shaft that a fixed ball would produce after it crosses the 12 o'clock position is delayed as the ball falls to its new position.  In fact, there is even a tiny reverse torque as its weight pushes against the short arm.  Then, as the short arm collides with its restraint, a greater forward torque is applied momentarily as the ball is decelerated.

The torque is modulated a bit at the bottom, too.

Ignoring impact losses, all the torque variations even out in the end, so that the average power (torque * rpm) applied to the shaft by one or any number of weights is zero, regardless of the direction or speed of rotation, so the wheel will not have a preferred direction overall, although for short moments it will prefer one direction, and then the other.

In real life, you will lose some energy to heat and sound as the ball hits its red or grey position restraints, and these losses aren't necessarily the same in both directions, so the wheel may indeed turn more easily in one direction than the other.

Quote
i have no illusion that the shifting of the mass from grey to red and back when when it reaches the appropriate position will in anyway make the wheel turn. what i need to figure out ia a method which will allow the mass f the balls to shift from their grey-red-grey postions without disrupting the rotation of the wheel.

Well, the weights flapping around would tend to make the rotation a bit bumpy.  The easiest way to smooth it out is to attach a big heavy flywheel to the shaft, so that the variations in torque produce only small variations in speed.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 09:26:12 AM »
G'day all,

This kind of idea has been around since Bessler's time. Bessler in his "Maschinen Traktate" sketches a very similar device.

It does not work.

Hans von Lieven
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 09:52:55 PM by hansvonlieven »

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 09:26:12 AM »
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Offline mapsrg

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 09:36:29 AM »
it looks like the the direction of rotation would be opposite to that indicated ...........since the red balls drop to a position closer to the center of rotation

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 03:39:43 AM »
Greetings This is my first post here.

The direction would be correct if you want to start it that way, but your weights would come inward, and you would loose any possibility of working. To make a old school wheel work you will have to figure out how to keep more weight on the downward side. Bessler's drawings show many attemps at this. So I would suggest you to look at  http://www.orffyre.com/main.html to get a good idea.

 I have studied them and have found several good ideas to work from and belive with a few ajustments and time to build them I could make about 3 of them work. Others of my own design I have built that I hope to have working shortly.

Just remember KISS and you might find a way.

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 03:39:43 AM »
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Offline Freezer

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 04:00:36 AM »
Eric Laithwaite - The real inventor of the maglev train.

He demonstrates that gravity wheel design in one of the videos at the bottom, # 16. Why perpetual motion can and does not exist..
http://www.gyroscopes.org/1974lecture.asp


ltseung brought this motor to our attention, but I don't think anyones tried it.  It incorporates a wobbling motion which isn't in the other repeated designs, and seems to add something new.

http://theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/newclaims/GravityMotor/gravity_motor.htm

I think these gravity wheels should work, they just aren't done with the right weight and aren't built to good tolerances.  We need a person with access to a machine shop, preferably a mill, to build these parts.


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 08:18:54 AM »
Freezer:

Thanks for posting the lecture series site.  I watched with interest the one you suggested and am now watching the whole series. I have always loved gyroscopes along with everything else on here.  Very enjoyable...thanks.

Bill

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 08:18:54 AM »
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Offline Joh70

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Re: gravity wheel question
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2007, 09:33:57 AM »
Welcome ABHAmmer, build your models and report your most promising here. Good Luck!

 

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