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Author Topic: MangusX's magnetic motor  (Read 11134 times)

Offline magnusx

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MangusX's magnetic motor
« on: June 25, 2007, 08:43:46 AM »
NOT QUITE FREE ENERGY

My thoughts on a ?Free Energy? machine.

A Magnetic machine
Let?s imagine that we want essentially a wheel that can be induced to turn continuously by the force of magnets alone.

To get a magnetic motor to work, we must consider the magnet itself first:
Between magnets there can exist attraction and repulsion, but any attraction results in the need for an equal amount of force to part them again, while if we use repulsion the magnets need to be brought close enough for the forces to act first - which once again takes energy input. This means that in order to gain energy from the action of magnets, we must find away of  temporarily neutralising magnetic force, and unless we have some new and exotic method of doing this, it will use as much or more energy to do as would be gained from the total of a single interaction - but as we will see, this is not the end of the story.   
We could also create a temporary magnetic field using an electromagnet, and that is how conventional electric motors work.
If we ignore the problem of getting the magnet into the starting position for a moment, we can use nothing more than the repulsion if we arrange things in a linear fashion and (for example) drop a magnetised ball bearing on a row of correctly oriented magnets to produce motion off the end of a track provided for the purpose - but that is not the same as a continuous loop of action.

CLOSING THE LOOP
This is the hard part: you can consider it analogous to rolling a ball downhill: the force of gravity does the work for you, but how do you get the ball back up the hill without losing all that you have gained? Of course, this is only an analogy.
First, the force of magnetism only operates strongly at a very close distance unlike gravity and we might use this to ?reset? our device by taking one of the active magnets out of the operation zone temporarily - but we must make sure that the energy used to do this is not more than will be produced by the rest of it?s motion - not impossible but not as easy as it might seem.
I call this action ?Gating? and it really is the central issue with both magnetic and electromagnetic devices: If, instead of using a permanent magnet in one place on our wheel?s path we put an electromagnet, then turned off the power at a crucial point in the wheel?s rotation we could create smooth continuous rotation - but that will use electrical energy rather than mechanical action. To make it easier for us, we might consider the opposite - turn on the electromagnet at one point in the motor?s cycle to ?gate? the action, which might use less power . . . . .  so we might consider two basic tasks for our wheel device to operate:

1. THE STRETCH
Stretching out the driving action of magnets repelling each other as strongly as possible for as much of the cycle as possible, thus netting maximum power output, and

2.  THE GATE
Constructing as efficient and low-energy a gating system as possible to connect the loop back to the start.
Provided that these two tasks are done well we should be able to produce output power far in excess of the input required, at least in theory.

Some other considerations
Any magnetic wheel device needs to be made of materials that will not interfere with the magnetic fields  - thus plastics and nonferrous alloys will be needed.
It is also important to ensure that that the magnets themselves do not interfere with one another in a negative way to prevent effective magnetic action.

A good example of THE STRETCH is the ?SMOT? - it uses magnets that are gradually positioned further toward the axis of motion so that as a ball moves past a stationary magnets it is pulled with increasing force. the trouble comes when we reach the end of the track.
 If we wanted to use this arrangement for repulsion we find that first, the wheel will want to move from a stronger to a weaker repelling force  since the next magnet in line must have less repelling force than the previous one, so if we want to have a series of increasingly powerful pulls we must use attraction. This is good in one way, but it leaves us in a bad position at the end of the action with a pair of magnets that are pulling together very strongly that we now need to separate in the gating action.
The other option - of starting off with a strong repulsion force, then tapering off, gives us the same power without needing to pull two magnets apart at the end, but we are conversely struck with the problem of how to get the wheel into position just past directly opposite the first magnet to start the cycle:
If we place magnets of increasing force fixed outside of a wheel holding a single magnet, it might be easier to adjust for testing purposes too - but we are still stuck with the same issue: gating.
What seems to be the simplest way to handle the gate is with an electromagnet. Here we have two basic options: either we turn it on when the rotor approaches to weaken or cancel the force of a magnet inside it, or we turn it on when it is opposite and use it?s force to repel the rotor magnet. Either option (depending on which you choose) can be used with either plain iron core, a magnet or even no core at all - but this might use more power. More research is needed  here to define which method gains best results.  I might suggest that nothing but a coil would work best but I cannot be certain at this time.
We could ?gate? with a mechanical  system too - what would be needed is something to move the first magnet out of line for a moment when the rotor was at the right point in it?s motion, but this would be hard to achieve while letting it drop back into position fast enough to act as required, while an electric system can be almost instantaneous.
Note here that in my humble opinion, any claims to self- action in magnetic wheels without some sort of gating system are probably fakes.  This does not mean that other methods are not possible either, by the way - and there are many possible forms of gating too. . .
(see attached image)
The key aspects here are then:
A. For as much of the rotor?s cycle as possible, we use magnetic force only so that no power input is needed - this is the ?free? part.
B. It will be necessary to leave a gap between the magnetic action area and the gating area (at the start of the magnetic action area) to prevent the fields interfering or combining  with each other.
C. The gating action will need to be timed by an electronic sensor which triggers an electromagnet to act at exactly the point where the rotor has passed it?s dead center, then turn off the power as soon as it has passed the next magnet in the series so that no energy is wasted. 
In simple terms, by using only one electromagnet pulsed for only an instant of each revolution, and using the propelling force of several magnets during the rest of a cycle, this device should produce a net gain in energy.
There are numerous examples of purported magnetic motors out there- but most fail my gating test - I am amazed at the number of fakes: smoothly machined gadgets that seem to have no gating mechanism at all.

Another variation on gating that I have not yet explored is the idea of using two magnets with coils wrapped around them which can be switched on and off - note that power is not being added here, only the two coils are being connected. If one of the magnets is being passed by a  moving magnetic body, the effect will be passed almost instantly to the other magnet. Depending on how we wire up the two coils, we might increase or decrease the field  in either  magnet which might be used to attain a self- rotating action. The down side might be reversed into an up- side if we configure the parts carefully. . . . . but I haven?t actually tried this.
How much of either magnet?s power will be diminished by this effect? I don?t know.

--------------------------------------
A planned motor project

In accordance with my previous discussion of magnetic motors I have designed a motor that embodies all of my current ideas.

A - Magnet rotating on a wheel
B - Magnet position sensor (photocell/light combination)
C1 to C10 - pushing magnets
D - Powered electromagnet
All of the magnets are coloured according to convention where the North Pole is coloured red.
As can be seen from the diagram, the wheel rotates in a clockwise direction and it is shown at the Gating point, where power to the coil would be activated. This will provide the initial push to get the wheel past the first magnet C1 and then it should continue on past the others in series, in a way similar to a SMOT but working in reverse - repulsion rather than attraction. When the wheel reaches opposite the sensor B,  the current would be activated once more and by adjusting the sensor?s position it can be expected that the timing of the magnetic field buildup would be set to coincide with the rotor magnet A?s arrival opposite it.
This diagram is not exact: it may well be necessary to adjust the position and even the exact orientation of the magnets C1 to C10 to get maximum effect, but the basic design is simple and clear.
As a further extension of the idea, two more rotor magnets and a second set of pushing magnets are also shown which would effectively triple the power output of the device once the system is sufficiently developed and fine tuning completed.
It is, of course, also possible to reverse the polarity of the rotor magnet and get the rotation to reverse as well, and provided that the sensor is positioned correctly the device should work equally as well.
It is true that this device will use some electrical energy to operate, but as stated previously, with the number of pushing elements being many more than the number of power consuming elements, this should net a definite gain when attached to a generator. It is also possible that coils might be wrapped around the magnets to give power output more directly but this would only be tried after the device is seen to work - and may reduce the action of the device.


Magnus X ,  24-6-2007

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

MangusX's magnetic motor
« on: June 25, 2007, 08:43:46 AM »

Offline TheOne

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 03:00:04 PM »
this is not a new concept, some have done it, its similar to minato wheel or another one that i don't remember, but yes i am sure this kind of design is working but i personal think attraction work better then repulsion but maybe i am wrong

Offline MrMag

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 03:24:54 PM »
Look's like Paul Sprains motor.

Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 03:24:54 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 04:11:21 PM »
It is a 2 x Paul Sprain motor in a circle.
Better run it , as Paul described it,  in attraction mode,
so your magnets would not discharge.

So then the rotation direction would be reversed.

I wonder, who removed again the videos and the Peswicki pages ??

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Harry_Paul_Sprain_mag net_motor

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=sprain+motor&search=Search

Offline TheOne

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 04:27:56 PM »
Usually you can see who delete the stuff in the "history" when you are registered to a wiki

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 04:27:56 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 05:28:29 PM »
It is a 2 x Paul Sprain motor in a circle.
Better run it , as Paul described it,  in attraction mode,
so your magnets would not discharge.

So then the rotation direction would be reversed.

I wonder, who removed again the videos and the Peswicki pages ??

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Harry_Paul_Sprain_mag net_motor

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=sprain+motor&search=Search

Even if you ran this style of motor in attraction mode, the field magnets are positioned beside each other in repel mode, being of the same pole, in constant battle against each other...  (Although in this design, it appears that the field magnets are spaced apart some, which makes a less smooth transistion from magnetic pole to pole for the rotor magnet).  All motors have some advantages and disadvantages.  This one's advantage is that it has no other moving parts through the use of electromagnets.  However the use of electromagnets directly in the motor, causes the power usage to be as high as the strength of the magnetic field that it is trying to overcome.  This may make over-unity performance difficult to achieve.

This style of motor is one of the few designs out there that actually runs.  Nice motor.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 05:52:40 PM »
You must use a very low loss electromagnet with low eddy currents and low
hysteresis losses, then you only need a short pulse to repell the permanent magnet
rotor away.
This way you can achieve overunity as Paul Sprain did achieve this.

Wait, until he will present his new machine.

Should have a much bigger overunity factor then.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 05:52:40 PM »
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Offline magnusx

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 08:33:22 AM »
Wow, thanks folks for the positive feedback!
I agree with the comments - it's true that you need a good electromagnet design - It was only a concept and I have no doubt that you could improve the design with time and testing.  wehter the magnets would interfere with each other depends on how powerful they are and the spacing etc. It doesn't matter if the pushes are a bit jerky since the full design would use the three rotor magnets to smooth things out anyway.
 I messed around with some magnet motors a few years back but all I could conclude was that you really need good measurement equipment and a budget way bigger than I have at the moment. My rig was hand made from plywood and without proper machine shop tooling you can't get very exact, which is important when you need to get things working properly.
I'm happy to help in any way I can with other folks though if that gets things happenning.
I'll be looking forward to Mr. Sprain's new motor too - it's good to see that there are others out there who have the same ideas (or hopefully better!)

Offline Paul-R

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Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2007, 03:56:21 PM »
You must use a very low loss electromagnet with low eddy currents and low
hysteresis losses, then you only need a short pulse to repell the permanent magnet
rotor away. This way you can achieve overunity as Paul Sprain did achieve this.
...not forgetting Yasunori Takahashi a decade earlier:
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/wankel.htm
I suspect that the key to performance may be in using the back emf
generated when the voltage is taken off the electromagnet.
Paul.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MangusX's magnetic motor
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2007, 03:56:21 PM »
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