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Author Topic: HV (bemf) Spikes - What to do with them?  (Read 8411 times)

mondrasek

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Re: HV (bemf) Spikes - What to do with them?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2008, 01:24:05 AM »
@sparks

Your post on resonance was great.  I've been playing with the idea of tuning a simplified four battery current siphon (Tesla switch) in the thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1645.0/topicseen.html .  This thread here was a side topic question related to that, so your post on resonance was right on.  I didn't realize until you mentioned it that is was slightly off topic because it is very relavant to the thread that spun this one off.

@Paul-R

Unfortunately the firewall at work does not allow the Yahoo groups.  I miss a lot of references from there, as well as some other sites that Gyula and others have offered up.  I do most of my reading at work, since at home I am usually trying to build or take care of the rest of "life".

@Gyula

Thanks again.

Also, I pulse "conditioned' brand new uncharged 9V NiCds from RadioShack on my Bedini fan one time.  They climbed to 9.7V very quickly (rated at 8.4).  Just like any new uncharged NiCd this was a fluff charge only, ie no capacity.  But since them I have conventionally charged them, maybe 20 times.  They always conventionally charge to ~9.7 volts.  They run great but once decayed down as far as 8.4 they are nearly dead.  I guess I should buy another and not condition it and try to compare the overall capacity and/or life.  That behavior is just something weird that I thought maybe someone here already had the explanation for.

mscoffman

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Re: HV (bemf) Spikes - What to do with them?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2008, 10:06:08 PM »
@modrasek;

Capacitors work on what is know as Q quantity of charge, litterally quantity of electrons.

One can look at the height of pulse as being created by a stack of electrons piled "end on end"
while the width of the pulse is created by a volume of electrons. So a pulse on the oscilloscope
can be looked on as an integration (summation) of the height of the pulse times the width of the
pulse.

A small capacitor will fill up fast, so a quantity of electrons will make it go to high voltage faster.
A larger (more uF) capacitor will go to a given voltage more slowly and require more quantity
of electron charge to get there.

Your motor winding has an inductance. It tends to reject (block) short (narrow) spikes. But
when you use those short spikes to charge a capacitor the voltage slowly rises to meet
an objective voltage. The DC voltage on the capacitor then runs the motor with DC for a
short time period which the inductor conducts more vigorously, but in the end then drains off.

=>In effect the capacitor has performed the function of down converting the high voltage spikes to
much lower voltage, but the quantity of electrons and therefore the energy, has been conserved
by the capacitor.

The impedance of the capacitor is a better match for the motor's impedance then the short
spikes circuit was. so you are using the charging cap as impedance matching.

---

photo flash caps are exactly the same as any capacitor except the high working
voltage (~300Vdc) and moderate capacitance (~250uF) allows them to store a
relatively high ( and relatively more hazardous) amount of electrical charge.
They are really the second rung on the power (rather than signal) capacitor scale.

---

Nicad batteries, of course, are infamous for the "memory effect" which happens when the cell's
of the battery are not discharged evenly. Voltage on some cells are still high while others
are low and there is no good way to "reach through"  the charged cells to get to the
discharged ones.  The spike voltage charging, I don't think is recommended for NiCad's,
and I believe LmNiH batteries are touchy to charge too. In acid/lead batteries you can
reach through with a "polishing charge". That leaves alkalines, which I don't know too
much about but would be worth a try.

---

Eventually, I think you should convert to small gel-cell acid leads that would be a better match
for the chemistry and pulse charging and a better match for your relay's power requirement
which is I suspect to large for the the 9Volt size batteries. I have not been able to locate
a good source for the 9Volt sized acid leads.


:S:MSCoffman





mondrasek

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Re: HV (bemf) Spikes - What to do with them?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2008, 02:55:20 PM »
@MSCoffman,

Thanks for the explanations on capacitors and impedance matching.  Makes good sense to me.

For what it is worth, my experiences with charging alkaline batteries off of HV has been somewhat successfull.  AA, C, and D cells appear to take on a charge again, however very slowly, especially so for the large D cells.  Smaller cells are more prone to burning up.  One 9V became very hot after failing to reach 9V over several days.  After disassembling it was clear that one of the 6 cells had burnt up, while the other 5 appeared fine.  A 12V "remote controll" type battery from a DMM actually exploded!  It is made of small button cells like used in a watch.  One of them exploded, causing the case to split and the other cells to fly around my work bench.  So I'm done with trying to charge alkalines.

I've always intended to switch to 12V SLAs on the current siphon if it became stable or the NiCds were limiting the testing.  I've been holding off only because of the expense and additional danger of higher current sources for now.  Since I'm at the point of winding my own solenoid coils now I might consider dropping down to 6 V since the rest of the set up is made of low current components.

M.