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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: Bruce_TPU on May 22, 2007, 05:43:05 AM
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http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6217712.html
Resin Rat will like this, forget the catalysts, just pick a frequency to mimic the catalyst and you have hydrogen.....!
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VVVEEEEERRRRRRRYYYY interesting!!! :)
This I must read. Thanks btentzer.
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I see hints of Stan Meyer's ghost in this one, but I'm no electronics guy. Resonance frequencies are all over the HHO threads. Is this different only because it uses RADIO wave frequencies? Somebody tell me. Does that mean it can get by with using voltage lower than the other methods that don't use catalysts?
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I see hints of Stan Meyer's ghost in this one, but I'm no electronics guy. Resonance frequencies are all over the HHO threads. Is this different only because it uses RADIO wave frequencies? Somebody tell me. Does that mean it can get by with using voltage lower than the other methods that don't use catalysts?
yah i think so.
If i correctly understand the meyers unit stan is trying for electrical resonance where the water tank is in essense the capacitor for the electrical circuit.
This guy is looking at the resonance of the water molecule itself with the intent of easily forcing it apart using the mass as the resonant frequency.
Thats my take on it.
here take a peek at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7RFyh5ABcQ
this one has the best music!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uNAYUSdA-4
This one is cool too watch the modal patterns change:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4971487472071937676&q=
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How to use resonance to split water:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE4238952&F=0
Received Patent-right !
But invented 1982: 2007, now free process technology !
S
dL
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Hi Resin Rat,
From what I understand of this, (1) day reading, is that every metal has a moleculer frequency. The patent says that these numbers are readily available.
Next, you take your RF signal generator and set it to that frequency and put it into the solution according to the patent.
The solution "feels" the catalyst. If it had a brain it would be tricked into thinking it is seeing that particular metal.
My first thought is KOH in water and Aluminum. Replace the Aluminum with the molecular resonant frequency of the Aluminum metal and you have the KOH water mixture thinking you just put in AL. And here comes Hydrogen!! Can you say,"unbelievable!" Where has this tech been?!
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
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what if you have two frequencies for both KOH & Alum?
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How to use resonance to split water:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE4238952&F=0
Received Patent-right !
But invented 1982: 2007, now free process technology !
S
dL
thought i woudl just post it :)
Abstract of DE4238952
In resonance-based generation of H2 and O2 from water, using a hypersonic generator of suitable frequency, the resonance frequency (fO) can be that corresp. to the distance (d) between the nucleus of the O atoms and its outer electron shell or the proton. fO can be calculated approx. from the formula: fO = c/(pi.d), where c= the speed of sound in water and pi= the Ludolf's no). USE/ADVANTAGE - The H2 can be used as fuel in power stations or in hydrogenation (hardening fat), synthesis of petrol, MeOH and NH3, redn in metallurgy, in welding etc. The O2 can also be used for technical and other purposes. The overall efficiency of the process is much higher than usual and the process is more friendly to the environment.
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@ hanker
Unknown!
Time to get some links on building a RF signal generator. Pese also know how to do this I think> A Good readable schematic would be a good find, guys.
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
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Y'all might be lookin' fer awile to find the plans- these frequencies are in the gigahertz range, or so I was told by a physics prof. The harmonics do the deed of splitting, but once you get past the third harmonic, the effect is so weak it won't do much good. Might as well just buy a sig gen that can hit the high notes, uh huh, and see what happens there.
Surely some hack out there has done this already; try and find his thesis and build offa that.
Keith
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@ Pese
Thank you Pese for your kind offers of help. I am sure there will be a need for it as well as any easy schematics for us electronic newbies.
P.S. And the Patent you posted is the same one I started the thread with. ;)
@ everyone
Patent's Quote: (here we go again! LOL)
"...defined as the signal frequency determined by nuclear magnetic resonance of the selected catalyst. It is commonplace to use nuclear magnetic resonance to identify elements within a substance and the signal frequencies of various elements (including catalysts) are listed in widely published tables."
If someone with a knack for research could find these tables (charts, data sheets,?) and post them here on this thread, that would be a good starting place.
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
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@ those interested in direct electrolysis without a metal catalyst I have this for you:
"The unit does not use "normal brute force" electrolysis when operating in high efficiency mode. It relies mainly on a chemical reaction that takes place between the electrolyte used and the metal plates, which is maintained by electrical energy applied and stimulated into higher efficiency by the application of multiple harmonic resonances which help to "tickle" the molecules apart. I coined the term "electrochemical reaction" to describe the process and I called the chamber an "electrochemical reactor". I used multiple cells in series to lower the voltage per cell and limit the current flow in order to reduce water vapor production. It relies on the large surface area of the total number of cells to get the required volume of fuel vapor output. In my first prototype of this design, I used a custom built controller/driver that gave me a lot of adjustability so I could experiment with multiple frequencies, voltages, and waveforms individually and compare performance. The result was a pattern of 3 interwoven square waves rich in harmonics that produced optimal efficiency. "
Let me guess...hmm..Resonant frequency of the plates, Harmonic and intermodulation. He does not say, but that would be my first try!! LOL RF signal!! Let me reword something...I KNOW FOR SURE that this person did this. I can't tell you how I know at this time, I might later. But this is TPU tech applied to water. Trust me when I say that. You need RF signal generator, small amount of electricity, amplifier of RF signal. Measure the Resonant Frequency of your plates (like a speaker!) Double that for the second frequency, this is the harmonic. COMBINE the two for the third. input to your plates and .... ;D
The cat is out of the bag!! LOL
Read his story here:
http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/Transportation/Bob_Boyce/#Part%20II
A public thank you to my newest source for this info.!!!!
(Is anyone starting to see a pattern here besides me? I hope so!) ;)
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
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Hello,
Just like to react to some things said here earlier. Off course you can't replace aluminium or other materials that are being used up in a chemical reaction! They are crucial to the reaction.
The patent is about mimcing the catalyst (a catalyst that isn't being used up to be more specific).
This being said it might be possible the replace the NaOH as it is not being used up when producing Hydrogen from aluminium. As NaOH is composed of different components itself you probablt need differnt frequencies te simulate the different components?
Regards
Robert
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@ dutchy
you said, "(a catalyst that isn't being used up to be more specific)."
Please cut and paste the part of the patent that says that.
If not, it is an assumption which may or may not be true.
We will know when we start to experiment.
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
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@ dutchy
you said, "(a catalyst that isn't being used up to be more specific)."
Please cut and paste the part of the patent that says that.
If not, it is an assumption which may or may not be true.
We will know when we start to experiment.
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
Bruce,
It even says that the catalyst has to be inert .....
See the attached picture.
Regards
Robert
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@ Dutchy
That is all I needed! ;)
I have been consumed in TPU land and have had not time to really study the patent yet. It will mimic platinum. I am not too familiar with catalyst, I am a pump in the amps and break the water! LOL
So we need one of you chemist types to step in here and come up with a good experiment to use platinum for H or HHO production.
Thank you for your time,
Bruce
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About catalyst being "used up":
In the electrolysis reaction the water is broken down and off-gasses, and the catalyst (i.e. NaOH) remains in ever-increasing concentration till more water is added. In resonance, so it is said, catalysts only get in the way.
And I cain't find what TPU means- what is it? Total point unity? I dunno- dumb newbie question...
Keith
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@btentzer
here you find the asked lesson to study.
use right link for "oscillator"
(more on my mail)
http://www.tpub.com/
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/index.htm INDEX
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_13.htm 1-1 CHAPTER 1 TUNED CIRCUITS LEARNING OBJECTIVES
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_65.htm CHAPTER 2 OSCILLATORS LEARNING OBJECTIVES
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_103.htm 3-1 CHAPTER 3 WAVEFORMS AND WAVE GENERATORS LEARNING OBJECTIVES
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_159.htm 4-1 CHAPTER 4 WAVE SHAPING LEARNING OBJECTIVES
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_231.htm Assignment Questions Information:
The text pages that you are to study are provided at the beginning of the assignment questions.
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When Moab first tested his TPU, Jason and I were skyped with him. During the experimentation process I suggested Moab put a glass of water in the middle.
If the GK4 can cook flesh I think it could operate as a catalyst.
Tpu on a 9volt battery used as a high freq genny.
--giantkiller.
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Not sure if this was talked about yet.
Just a warning , whether you build the cell into and transducer , submerse the transducer or use the transducer outside the cell and pump RF through the cell. There is something that can and will happen if you hit the right freqs . You can key into the water molecule and brake it down with Inharmonics and you can also cause the electrons of the hydrogen atom to disassociate . If you do this the H atom will release energy of a emence magnitude .I am not taking about blowing up a jar or a lab, I am talking about blowing up a house +
Be very very careful with this technology .
IronHead
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The informative warning post from IronHead... don't take it lightly or write it off. He's been down this road and has first hand experience, thread carefully in this area.
-rapttor
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My cordless home phone transmits at 2.8 to 5 gigahertz
could a home phone be altered to send it's transmission thru saltwater
and duplicate the Dr. saltwater accident????/
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If you want to put something in WATER that will disassociate it...
consider this:
http://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/electroncasc.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/elecfg.htm
You can literally cause an avalanche of electrons, all being ripped away from H2O, thereby splitting water.
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Interesting!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLKExuHlQMQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKtKSEQBeI
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How about using this in PEM fuel cells, the reason fuel cells are so expensive is because they need silver or other catalysists.
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I'll give you a cool simple little experiment to try along these lines. Take a 20 oz bottle cap and fill it 3/4 full of water. Then put a teaspoon of salt in it. Put it in the microwave for 1 minute and small sparks and flames will shoot form the bottlecap. You may have to play with the amounts of salt and water. I have done this many times so I can tell you from my experience it is safe. Try it and post your results here.
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This patent, like many many others, is totally bogus. It simply doesn't work. If the platinum and/or palladium could be eliminated from catalytic converters by using a simple low power RF signal, believe me...it would be standard practice by now, six years after this patent published.
Platinum is almost $1300 per ounce and there have been enormous efforts by several large auto companies to reduce or eliminate the need to use it. Palladium is cheaper but four times as much is needed compared to platinum for the same results.
One of the biggest misconceptions about resonance is that things give off energy at their resonant frequencies all the time. Does a bell ring when it is just sitting there by itself? Does a tuning fork vibrate on its own? Believe me, a bar of platinum does not transmit an RF signal any more than a bar of iron or a chunk of wood or a ball of yarn.
According to Wiki "NMR", the NMR frequency is not a fixed number for a given material but rather: "NMR resonant frequencies for a particular substance are directly proportional to the strength of the applied magnetic field." If this is true, then even the concept that a given catalyst material has some fixed "NMR frequency" is fundamentally flawed.
A big sign that this guy who writes the patent is clueless comes when he says that nobody really knows how catalysts work because they are inert and not consumed but they must be present to complete the reaction. He is among the few chemistry buffs who have no clue how catalysis works.
From Wiki "Catalysis" definition:
"Catalysts generally react with one or more reactants to form a chemical intermediate that subsequently reacts to form the final reaction product, in the process regenerating the catalyst."
So, the catalyst actually does have to physically be there and does react with the other elements. It is only "effectively or virtually inert" in the sense that an equal amount that is temporarily consumed to obtain the initial catalytic reaction is subsequently returned at the end of the reaction.
Sorry...can't fool Mother Nature with 50 cents worth of GASFETs!
Humbugger
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G'day all,
There seems to be a misunderstanding here as to how a catalyst works and why it is unchanged after the reaction is over. Perhaps this will help:
There are two ways in which catalysts work. You already know that when two different molecules bump into each other, they might react to make new chemicals. We usually talk about "collisions" between molecules, it would be much simpler to say that the molecules bumped into each other. How fast a chemical reaction is depends upon how frequently the molecules collide. You have probably been told about the "kinetic theory" which is all about heat and how fast molecules move around. What catalysts are doing when they make a chemical reaction go faster is to increase the chance of molecules colliding. The first method is by "adsorption", the second method is by the formation of intermediate compounds.
Adsorption This occurs when a molecule sticks onto the surface of a catalyst. Make sure that you spell this word correctly; it is not the same as absorption. Here is an example: it is possible to use Platinum as a catalyst to make sulphur Trioxide from Sulphur Dioxide and Oxygen. Sulphur Trioxide is very important because it is used to make Sulphuric acid which is needed for car batteries. The molecules of the two gases (Sulphur Dioxide and Oxygen) get adsorbed (stuck onto) the surface of a Platinum catalyst. Because the two molecules are held so close together, it is more likely that they will collide and therefore react with each other. The Sulphur Trioxide easily falls off the catalyst leaving space for more Sulphur Trioxide and Oxygen.
Intermediate Compounds Many catalysts, including all enzymes" work by forming intermediate compounds. What happens is very simple: the chemicals involved in the reaction combine with the catalyst making an intermediate compound, but this new compound is very unstable. When the intermediate compound breaks down it releases the new compounds and the original catalyst.
Hans von Lieven
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Much better explanation than mine (borrowed from Wiki as noted)! I do love it when I get to learn something...
Humbugger
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G'day Hum,
Why go to all the trouble to write it yourself when someone has already done a magnificent job of explaining it. :-)
As long as the message gets through, who cares?
Hans von Lieven