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Author Topic: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..  (Read 203876 times)

Offline Honk

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2007, 01:07:02 PM »
Also, I am very very curious how you are handling the BEMF in your controller.
Are you simply providing it a clean path to a capacitor or battery at collapse?

The Back EMF is handled by the "Boosting Flux Respons Enhancement feature"........and this is where the magic happens :-)
Later on I will release the schematic and gerber documents and also answer all your questions regarding the controller.
I still have to perform some very important valve tests before I know all about the controller and it's performance.
I'm not sure how the controller will handle a real Hilden-Brand magnet valve. When building 3 of those valves I can simulate a real 3 phase
motor motor by connecting them to the controller output and then I'll connect the controller input to a 3 bit decimal shift register.
The 3 bit decimal shift register will simulate the position feedback from the points and make it easy to simulate 10 RPM to 3000 RPM.

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Offline wattsup

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2007, 02:19:37 PM »
@Honk

Thanks for the heads up and I understand you are not talking about specifics of the circuit. Then maybe ask others here as I am sure you are already aware of others doing control or lack of control of BEMF. Look at the Otto - ECD threads. Most of the guys are saying their circuit is heating up and some have burned out.

At the 3000 rpm level the BEMF will be extreme so all I am saying is make double sure you know what you are doing. Consider having the straightest route to a (non circuit) BEMF absorber. Maintain the negative solid and switch the coil at each collapse out of the circuit to a cap or battery. If you are taking the BEMF into the circuit, you could risk overheating and energy loss. I did not notice any connection to your circuit for a large capacitor or battery control section to absorb the BEMF energy and release it, so I am a little worried. I am not an EE but when turning motors that develop a strong enough drag, the BEMF can be severe.

Offline Honk

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2007, 03:24:04 PM »
I can never be totaly sure that the controller won't break down if abused. This is why I have to build the test valves.
In the manual that Jack will read I will of course mention that never unplugg the controller while operating the motor.
This could for sure destroy the controller by the EMF spike.

In my test I have not seen worse EMF at higher RPM than lower RPM. It stays the same.
But when you increase the current you will also increase the back EMF as well.
When operating Jack's motor the current stays much the same at hard or light work. It's not like an ordinary motor.
This is how the motor is supposed to provide more out than in. At low RPM and fantastic torque to run a generator.

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2007, 03:24:04 PM »
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Offline JackH

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2007, 04:21:34 AM »

Later,,,,,,JackH


« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 02:57:44 AM by JackH »

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2007, 09:11:20 AM »
Just curious...I keep hearing that the BEMF stays the same regardles of RPM.  That seems odd to me from an energy-integral perspective.  It would be one thing that the individual BEMF power pulses each stay the same but don't they occur more often at higher RPM (thus representing more possibly destructive energy)?

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2007, 09:11:20 AM »
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Offline Honk

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2007, 10:07:52 AM »
Yes, they occur more often at higher rpm but each back emf pulse stays at the power level and voltage regardless of the rpm at load.
Is does not matter that they occur more often. The controller will handle the emf spike and return it to the coil of the next phase. This will save energy.
At 500 RPM the motor generates 50 back emf spikes/second. At 3000 RPM the motor generates 300 back emf spikes/second.
But 300Hz of back emf spikes is no match for modern electronics that can easily cope with many hundreds of thousands hertz.

Offline Gregory

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2007, 12:45:01 PM »
Nice motor Jack!

As I see you use three rotors, 1 valve per rotor, and a 120 degrees offset for the timing of the valves, I guess.

Great setup, I like it. Best of luck to you & Honk!

There is an option mentioned before, to gear down the rotational output of the motor, and attach it to a low Rpm windmill generator. But now as I read you are planning to build a generator to exactly fit with the requirements of the new motor.

So, at what Rpm level you are planning to run the self-running test?

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2007, 12:45:01 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2007, 03:15:31 PM »
Yes, they occur more often at higher rpm but each back emf pulse stays at the power level and voltage regardless of the rpm at load.
Is does not matter that they occur more often. The controller will handle the emf spike and return it to the coil of the next phase. This will save energy.
At 500 RPM the motor generates 50 back emf spikes/second. At 3000 RPM the motor generates 300 back emf spikes/second.
But 300Hz of back emf spikes is no match for modern electronics that can easily cope with many hundreds of thousands hertz.


Hi Honk,

Do you find that the bemf pulses are of a higher impedance nature and return in a form of much higher voltage and lower current than the voltage that the motor normally operates on?  I notice this on 6 or 12v relay coils etc...   (It may depend on the number of turns in the coil).  To avoid an impedance mismatch and power loss from the bemf pulse, does the circuit step down the pulse to a lower, more managable voltage and useable current before returning it to the motor for usable power, and can the electronics handle the high voltage spike that occurs on bemf pulses?

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2007, 04:38:18 PM »
Yes, they occur more often at higher rpm but each back emf pulse stays at the power level and voltage regardless of the rpm at load.
Is does not matter that they occur more often. The controller will handle the emf spike and return it to the coil of the next phase. This will save energy.
At 500 RPM the motor generates 50 back emf spikes/second. At 3000 RPM the motor generates 300 back emf spikes/second.
But 300Hz of back emf spikes is no match for modern electronics that can easily cope with many hundreds of thousands hertz.


@Honk...okay...sounds like you've got it under control then...thanks for clarifying.  By the way, as a fellow product developer (power electronics) I have to say I'm impressed with your speed and professional-looking job on the controller.  It looks kind of small to me, and I was taken aback by the 20W worth of big sandbox resistors there (for a 45w unit running 92% eff, that must be pretty extreme overkill on something!), but I'm not privy to the specs and requirements, so, I guess I will just have to wonder!

My last high power project was using RF HV Mosfets in a extremely compact 96VDC-to-40.68MHz RF generator of 1200W RFoutput.  It took a year for me to develop.  These RF generators are, since 2001, used in every Synrad F-series Firestar CO2 laser from 100W to 400W optical output.  I mention this so that you will understand I am aware of what modern electronics can handle.  The biggest problem I had was a back-emf problem that is a bit different than in motors and electromagnets. 

In RF-driven laser tubes, there is typically a very high Q resonant circuit driven by RF which is used both for ignition and running modes.  To strike the plasma up in these particular tubes, reactive power well in excess of 20KVAR is required to be shoved into this ultra-hi-Q internal network consisting of the laser tube's inherent inter-electrode capacitances and a set of a dozen or so gold-plated beryllium-copper inductors placed in parallel over the length of the electrodes. 

Fortunately, the ignition only requires a few microsecond long pulse at 40.68 MHz so it can be done with the same RF amp, but, when the laser tube won't light up for some reason (bad gas mix, off-tuned resonator, whatever) all hell would break loose at the end of the ignition pulse when the energy stored in that ultra high Q circuit would come flying back into the RF output stage, whose MOSFETs were now all off.  This brought some pretty big energy with rising voltages that occasionally went past the 500V rating and the avalanche rating of the MOSFETs...bang!  Took some doing to resolve. 

Normally, once the plasma in the tube began to form, it would easily absorb all the energy and things ran just fine...no back-spike at all.  All that reactive power would change to true power, asthe plasma load is like a nice big resistor and the RF tuning was set up for low VSWR during run-mode as opposed to start mode.

It sounds like, when I hear that the back emf from the motor is 2/3 of the input power on an ongoing basis no matter the RPM or mechanical load...well...the only way I could think to explain that is poor coupling between electromagnets and motor armature but that makes no sense if the motor is really as efficient as purported!  I often wonder how much of my (and others) confusion comes from not communicating on the same wavelength with the same terminology and how much comes from not measuring things correctly. 

Seems like in a motor where the coefficient of coupling was extremely high, the input current and BEMF would be highly dependent on mechanical loading!  Anyway...you guys are doing some really neat looking work and with what appears to be top-notch skill levels...world-class actually.  I sure hope the concept pans out for you, fellas!  I'm an OU skeptic, as you may have gathered.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2007, 04:38:18 PM »
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Offline Honk

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2007, 05:52:42 PM »
Hi Honk,

Do you find that the bemf pulses are of a higher impedance nature and return in a form of much higher voltage and lower current than the voltage that the motor normally operates on?  I notice this on 6 or 12v relay coils etc...   (It may depend on the number of turns in the coil).  To avoid an impedance mismatch and power loss from the bemf pulse, does the circuit step down the pulse to a lower, more managable voltage and useable current before returning it to the motor for usable power, and can the electronics handle the high voltage spike that occurs on bemf pulses?

Hi

You are close in some of your assumption's but still far away from how the controller handle the back emf.
Be patient....hehehe....sometime in the close future I will reveal the secret of the Flux Booster Controller.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 12:05:01 PM by Honk »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2007, 06:13:52 PM »
.....
It sounds like, when I hear that the back emf from the motor is 2/3 of the input power on an ongoing basis no matter the RPM or mechanical load...well...the only way I could think to explain that is poor coupling between electromagnets and motor armature but that makes no sense if the motor is really as efficient as purported!  I often wonder how much of my (and others) confusion comes from not communicating on the same wavelength with the same terminology and how much comes from not measuring things correctly. 

Seems like in a motor where the coefficient of coupling was extremely high, the input current and BEMF would be highly dependent on mechanical loading!  Anyway...you guys are doing some really neat looking work and with what appears to be top-notch skill levels...world-class actually.  I sure hope the concept pans out for you, fellas!  I'm an OU skeptic, as you may have gathered.

Hi Humbugger,

May I kindly draw your attention to a link below, where you can get yourself introduced to the working principle of Jack's valve.  He says his valve is able to switch on or off a strong permanent magnet.  I write this because from the above text it seems you have not fully in his motor principle.  I would be pleased to read your opinion once you have read this link:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor

Regards
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2007, 06:13:52 PM »
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Offline Honk

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2007, 06:28:47 PM »
I'm impressed with your speed and professional-looking job on the controller.

Thank you very much. I take great pleasures in making my designs both look good and work good at extreme efficiencies.

It looks kind of small to me, and I was taken aback by the 20W worth of big sandbox resistors there (for a 45w unit running 92% eff, that must be pretty extreme overkill on something!), but I'm not privy to the specs and requirements, so, I guess I will just have to wonder!

The PCB measures 87 x 128.5mm and it contains a very high efficiency (92%) AC-DC converter, a 3 phase controller, a 110V
generator sustain unit and a back EMF protection unit and this is what the big sandwiched power resistor are used for.
In case the controller cannot handle the back EMF by a mismatch or some other reason then some of the excess energy is
dumped into the resistors to protect the controller from to high levels of back EMF voltage. The protective back EMF unit
shall not be activated during normal use of the controller. This is purely a safety unit and can be excluded in mass production
when the controller is matched to the motor. If the resistors are running hot during Jack's tests we will have to adjust the
controller to fit the motor more closely.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 11:41:14 AM by Honk »

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2007, 07:34:52 PM »
@gyulasun   

Thanks for the link...I had been looking for more info on the principal behind this motor.  It also led back to a huge thread here at overunity I hadn't found before where Jack started a discussion on his motor but then apparently pulled all of his posts at some point...makes it hard to follow now.

The basic idea, it seems, stems from the purported ability to either nullify or quadruple the field strength of a particular cylindrical magnet surrounded by a particular ferrous sleeve and the whole assembly surrounded by a solenoid coil.  It is claimed that this manipulation is done with a mere 8W of DC power for the magnets and sleeves described.  There is an implication that the "magnetic force" being controlled is very much larger than the "electrical force" used to control it. 

What I don't understand is that, if all of the above were indeed true, why bother building a motor with it?  Especially if the plan is to run a generator with the motor to get back to electrical output. 

Why not just use this huge magnetic flux variation that is being controlled by a tiny amount of electrical power applied apparently in well-orchestrated pulses and just hang some pickup coils on it?  What is the advantage of going mechanical and then back to electrical? 

If anyone figures out how to modulate big permanent magnetic fields and make them vary from zero to 4x rapidly, using only a relatively tiny amount of electrical energy, then a MEG-like solid state device would seem to be far preferred to a rotary motor/generator unless there was some need for rotary torque output.  If the idea is electricity in/electricity out over unity (which would be a truly wonderful thing), what's the point of moving and spinning a bunch of physical mass in between?

Am I being dense here?  Have I missed something?  Seems like a lot of these OU inventions have way more elements than needed...let's find the part of the invention responsible for the OU and keep it simple from there!

@Honk...sounds like you're maybe not too sure you can guide the BEMF pulses to the right place at the right time  So the resistors are there to absorb the unlikely excess, eh? 27K ohms 10W...you must be expecting some pretty high-voltage pulses! 

By "small" I meant that I somewhere got the idea that this new motor was supposed to put out several horsepower while only drawing 300-400W of input power...must be confused with another project maybe...been reading about dozens lately!  I was just surprised to see your small input bulk-storage cap and modest 45W rating and no heatsinking of MOSFETS or whatever your switching elements are, that's what I meant by "seems small"...I was thinking several hundred wattswould be needed for some reason.

Anyhoo...please don't mistake my generally skeptical attitude for any kind of personal disrespect.  You guys are building very cool projects that show a lot of savvy and tremendously polished skills.  I just ain't quite convinced of the soundness or clarity of the underlying principals involved.  I tend to "believe" only after I fully "understand". My downfall, I'm sure...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 08:00:33 PM by Humbugger »

Offline wattsup

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2007, 08:04:03 PM »
@Humbugger

I gathered from your reponses sometimes that you had some skeptical streak which in itself is very useful indeed. May you keep it in good measure always.

You and Honk should go and take a look at the thread I started here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2944.0.html

Actually, my idea  is alot like @Humbugger was saying about why turning the rotor.

If you have any ideas, I'm all ears.

Also, the guys working on Otto's ECD could use some of your RF savvy I am sure. The thread ends near here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2535.890.html

I took a look at the web site for your RF device you have developped located here
http://synrad.com/ and it is very impressive indeed.

All the best.


Offline Honk

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Re: Controller circuit for Hilden Brandt motor needed..
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2007, 10:51:14 PM »
@Honk...sounds like you're maybe not too sure you can guide the BEMF pulses to the right place at the right time  So the resistors are there to absorb the unlikely excess, eh? 27K ohms 10W...you must be expecting some pretty high-voltage pulses! 

I know for sure that I "can guide" the pulses exactly where I want them to go "at the right time". No problems with that.
If the back EMF should get any higher than the transistors in the controller can handle then I can "tune" the back EMF level by a potentiometer.
But I'm living in Sweden and I cannot just go over there and help Jack when he's ready to hook up the controller to his motor.
This is why I have added the protection circuit. It will acctually never reach any 20W when activated. 3-7W is more like it.
It is operating by small pulses that adjust the back EMF voltage to a safe level, but only when needed at mismatch.

By "small" I meant that I somewhere got the idea that this new motor was supposed to put out several horsepower while only drawing 300-400W of input power...must be confused with another project maybe...been reading about dozens lately!  I was just surprised to see your small input bulk-storage cap and modest 45W rating and no heatsinking of MOSFETS or whatever your switching elements are, that's what I meant by "seems small"...I was thinking several hundred wattswould be needed for some reason.

You are right, Jack's motor will consume approx 200-300 watt and putting out several Hp when running on points only.
The whole idea with my controller is that I can make the motor run at full load at almost static valve power e.g 20-25W.
The AC-DC within the controller is was tested at 45W, not rated. It's rated to 85W. I could of course deliver more power from
a 92% efficient AC-DC but there is no gain in feeding more current to the valves of the motor. It would just destroy the magnets.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 01:15:48 PM by Honk »

 

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