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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:11:27 PM

Title: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:11:27 PM
Technical name: Gaussian Flux Motor (GFM).

This is a design that has started its own thread off of ?Working SMOT by Tom Ferko? http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1244.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1244.0.html). At the start of that thread Tom posted a video of an experiment he tried using two permanent magnet rails and a ring magnet. Most SMOTs have what?s known as a sticky spot which prevents any energy to be pulled from them. However, this has not stopped a lot of people from trying to figure out a way to do it. Tom tried what is best described as a stagger track. Similar to a V gate but with the rails staggered by half there lengths. This seems to allow the Ring magnet in the video to be pulled in, wave through, and be accelerated out the other side.

In the video below Tom demonstrated the magnet being pulled through and accelerated out the end of the rails. It does not show the ring magnet being pulled into the rails however from Tom?s description of the polarities of the rails the first rail the ring magnet encounters has the opposite poll thus it should pull the ring in. This is an assumption on my part which I am planning on trying to duplicate and test shortly.

Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6531588179303444480)

So what does that leave us? Tom in is thread went in one direction with that experiment which they are still trying to make work. I had another idea which I think has some merit. I entered Tom?s thread on pages 30-36 and then decided I needed a thread of my own. I will now repost a condensed version on my current theory.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:15:07 PM
Reproduction:
   I?m currently working on getting all the parts to reproduce the experiment in Tom?s first video. My goal is to see how the ring magnet reacts to the rails through the whole rang of movement through the rails. As shown in the picture below. With the a sitting at rest before the rails and then slowly moving the magnet forward until the magnet is pulled into the rails and accelerated through and out the end. This would practically prove that the magnets are accelerating the magnet and propelling it past the infamous sticky spot. Then I plan to test the following:

1-   How straight of a line can the ring magnet travel? (guides?)
2-   Is there a more optimal layout of the rails?
3-   Can a block magnet on wheels be pulled through verses the ring magnet?
4-   Would a piece of steel instead of the ring magnet/magnet work better?
5-   Can two or more rails end to end still accelerate the traveling object and let it travel free at the end?

Once I know the most optimal configuration I can create I then need to find a way to turn this liner track into something that can be looped.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:17:19 PM
Finishing the loop:

After taking a few baby steps with designs I had in Tom?s thread I came to a design I think has a good chance and is feasible for me to build. My first thought was to simply curve the rails so the magnet affixed to the edge of a wheel or arm could travel through the rails. And if it operated the same as on a linear track it should accelerate the rotation of the wheel enough to spin it back around and into the start of the rails again. This would then theoreticaly accelerate the rotation with every pass. This is probably the simplest version of the design which is show in the picture below.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:19:54 PM
Add More:

The next logical step would be to add more rails and ?rotor magnets? to the wheel to increase the moments of acceleration. First I added a rotor (total of two) shown in the picture above. Then I added two more rails like the picture below. Also, by positioning the rails at the right points a timing can be achieved that has one or more rotors being accelerated at any point when another is traveling through a sticky spot. This will only improve the ability to pass by the sticky spot.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:20:39 PM
Full Track:

Truly the ultimate configuration of the rails is a continuous track of staggered rails around the circumference of the wheel. However this is assuming that end to end rails will act the same as a single rail. I?m not sure how the magnetic fields would interact. Theoretically sets of rails that have space between them should work if anything at all will work. A continuous track of rails would only be an improvement. Below is a simple illustration of a continuous track.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:26:05 PM
Most likely construction:

My current idea of what I want to construct is a three armed (rotors) wheel with four fixed rails (stators) around the wheel as shown in the picture below. With the configuration below at any given point of rotation there should always be two that want to accelerate while one is at a sticky point. Theoretically again with the stagger rails the sticky point shouldn?t prevent the wheel from spinning. Theoretically! But just to make sure, having three is not a bad idea. More is possible too.  If the wheel has an approximate 4 ft diameter it would have a 12.56 ft circumference. If you take sets of Tom?s rails which are around 34? in track length you could fit four sets around the circumference with about 3.68? between the start and end of each rail set. If made much smaller there is a chance the magnets would be too close to each other and the fields may start to change the results. Maybe even bigger might be a better idea?

Rails:

The rails Tom made in his video are made up of (per rail) 13- 1.5? magnets with ?? spacers between them. They are ?? diameter rod magnets. They are held in ?? aluminum channel. The rails are over lapping (staggered) by half there length and angled in on one end. After my reproduction I?ll test as much as I can to find the best configuration which may be Tom?s. I plan to use 2 - ?? diameter x ?? long Neo rod magnets connected end to end to form his 1.5? magnets. I don?t think this should be any different?

Rotor:


Tom used 3- 4.5? diameter x 1? thick ring magnets as his traveler which I hope to replace in the wheel design with a neo bar magnet if it works better on the linear track.

Axle:

I have a custom build axle made with two skateboard ball bearings which is the lowest friction axle I can find. However, it isn?t that stable if you want to build something that is fine tuned and aligned. I found a wheel barrel/ cart wheel at a hardware store that has a fairly low friction ball bearing axle that is bolted with four bolts to the rim of the wheel. The rim can be taken off and I can use the four bolts to securely fix it to the center of my wheel/arms. I would bolt the axle to a thin aluminum plate (preferable a round disc) and then I can drill bolt holes in 120 degree alignment for the three arms. Its probably not quite as friction less but its stable and easy to construct.



Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:28:48 PM
The Arms of the Wheel:

I think I would use some kind of square tubing for the arms around 1-2? thick. I?m hoping the rotors can travel in a straight line through the rails however Tom?s video shows the magnet wanting to wobble through them. If this is necessary then the rotor magnets need to be able to move a few inches side to side to bounce off the sticky spots. Two ways this can be done is by using some kind of ball bearing track the allows the rotor magnet to slide side to side or in the graphic below a thin piece of aluminum that can bend side to side but not up and down. The rotors path would have a slide arc to it but it would be minimal. The aluminum arm would also try to keep the rotor magnet traveling in as straight of a line as possible. Allowing the magnet to travel side to side would cause some vibration but if it works who cares?
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:31:44 PM
Structure:

Now this is where I haven?t figured out how to hold everything in place. My first idea was to build a large aluminum square frame that the wheel would spin inside and the rails would be mounted to the insides of the frame. The hard part is that each rail would have to have an adjustment arm to align it. It would take a lot of custom pieces.
The other idea is to make a large cylinder (4+? diameter, 12+? wide inner surface, 1/8? thick aluminum) that the wheel would be inside and I would mount the rails on the curved insides. This would take a lot of material and bending which is costly but probably would work better. I?ll try to make some graphics of these but its hard to make a three dimensional graphic.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 08:32:34 PM
What I need from you!

Well, now what I need is support. I will probably have to through a large amount of money at this and I would like to hear what you have to say about the practicality of the design.

Is it worth the money or is it a shot in the dark?

Is there anything I should improve or change to save cost or to make it work?

On a scale of 1-10 do you think it would work? 1 being no and 10 being I?m going to be rich!

I just want to hear what you ALL have to say?

Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 09:08:06 PM
Here is something I also have been throwing around. I'm not sure how the magnetic fields would change if you where to bend the sticky spots of the rails away from the exit point. Just a thought? Any comments?

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: pese on April 23, 2007, 09:13:01 PM
.

Pese
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: pese on April 23, 2007, 09:15:09 PM
Here is something I also have been throwing around. I'm not sure how the magnetic fields would change if you where to bend the sticky spots of the rails away from the exit point. Just a thought? Any comments?

Tim

The "Idea" is good.
But :

#1 and #9  will not work.

Pese
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 23, 2007, 09:21:35 PM
What are you referring to by #1 and #9? If it was my last post then there is only # 1-6. And if you could elaborate on why they wont work? Thanks,

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 23, 2007, 11:39:32 PM
Get the flat one done and put up a video. Then see about a single rail curved one, crude just to check it out. And then we'll see about funding.
You know my thoughts on the design.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 24, 2007, 12:00:20 AM
Thanks d3'

The ring magnets should show up this week and I hope the 3/4" ceramic disc magnets work for the rails. The company I want to buy the Neos from is moving and can't ship until May 14th so I will have to wait until then if I need to use them.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 24, 2007, 04:17:36 AM
I have three shipments of magnets coming in hopfully soon. However mags4less or whatever isn't gonna ship anything for a couple weeks, which puts off the full scale of what I want to do. And I still can't find the gears I want, and the couple I have right now, my machinist can't remeber where he got them from. I love working with people who have no particular care about projects like this. I will have to dismantle part of my frame to take the parts in to have it matched, but maybe in a couple weeks I might have something to show for it all. I also have about 2lbs of bismuth coming in for fun.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 24, 2007, 06:53:27 PM
Does anyone have anything to say? I would appreciate any feed back positive or negative. Thanks,

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 24, 2007, 07:40:04 PM
Hi Tim,

Its me. I am following you.  I believe you are on the right track and hope everything works out where you can bring this to the next CIRCULAR level.

From what I saw in the linear form the runner magnet starts to pick up speed just like magnets in a rail gun. 

Think of the power of two 4.5 inch diameter runner magnets mounted like you have illustrated and rotating fast.  It would be awsome if the concept works.

In my last movie I showed a rotating turntable with two 4.5 inch magnets mounted on it.  My power ring idea did not work out. --- So---Next I am going to try some sort of outer cylinder around the rotating rotor turntable with a staggered track configuration of magnets lining the walls.  Check out the rotating cylinder wall magnet configuration in this movie.

Note:  I see a shadow of a fast moving arm just as the cylinder rotates-- Question if it was given a hand spin leading to wrong assumptions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzdfk66CmLc       


Tom
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 24, 2007, 10:30:14 PM
Tom,

I agree, there is something fishy about that video. What he is talking about when he says something about using one set of magnets to pull another set through the sticky spot is a valid idea. However, every time I see one of those video and 90% of it is about a better tomorrow or some political/ philanthropically idea rather then the scientific break through in technology and how the mechanics work I think its just a hokes or some school project to make a convincing video for a class. It sounds too much like a sales pitch then scientific presentation.

Tim 
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Low-Q on April 24, 2007, 10:50:16 PM
I believe it will work this way:

When the rotor magnet is approaching the stator magnet it meets a weak, and gradually stronger magnetic field, over a relatively long distance, as it approach further. The drawback however, is where the rotor magnet is going to leave the narrowest end of the stator magnets. The sum of attraction forces is namely the same in both directions, but it is weaker and over a longer distance at the widest end, and strong over a short distance at the narrowest end of the stator magnet.

Well, I have learn that if a magnet is going to continuously push another magnet more in one direction than in the other, the magnetic field must alter - as it doesn't in a permanent magnet. The tricky part is to find a way to close this loop, find a way to alter the magnetic field without consuming energy that will force the rotor as much in the opposite direction.

How do you solve that? I believe this is one of the questions you want some answers to. I have unfortunately not, but I know only the principals about how it must work, to work:

When using permanent magnets as power, it is no problem to alter the magnetic field from strong to weak - it is just to alter the distance in one end as shown in your drawings. The problem however is where the magnetic lines lays in that configuration. The magnetic field will always be strongest and with continuous strength all the time at the narrowest point forcing the rotor magnet to attract to this point.
In an altering magnetic field caused by supplying external power, the magnetic lines can be arranged quite similar, but the field where it used to be strongest is suddenly weaker, or gone, in an appropriate moment - just where the rotor magnet has passed the strongest field of the stator magnet. So there is suddenly no force to pull the rotor magnet back in the opposite direction.

So, if one are able to alter or weaken a magnetic field, when appropriate, without using energy and alter the magnetic path, the solution to make a real permanent magnet motor is present. A material that will help to solve this, have the properties to absorb magnetic field without altering the magnetic path close to it where this material is present.
A material that will cast a magnetic shadow. Magnetic materials are not an option.

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 24, 2007, 11:10:48 PM
Low-Q,

To some extent I agree with what you said. However in regard to the design I have presented and from the video of the physical experiment using actual observation, and not theory, it seems this configuration does allow the magnet to pass through the "sticky spot" without having the shield  or weaken anything. Thus, if what we saw in the video is accurate then the problem is simple to loop the ring magnet back through the rails? Even if the experiment in the video was misleading I think using a midpoint rotor assembly would allow for multiple rotors to be in the acceleration point in the rails while only one is trying to break free of the "sticky spot". My assumption would then be if the attraction force is equal to the repelling force then by having two or more attracting would have twice or more force needed to push one free of the rails. That would start the whole process over again.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Static_8 on April 25, 2007, 01:49:52 AM
This was my take on the spinner
The missing magnet was the big deal.
I haven't tested it yet, need more magnets....
Also the spacing between the rotor and stator...it ran when the rotor was
at a slight distance away from the stator.
I am guessing at the polarity's in the attached drawing..
Anyone CAD run it yet?
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 25, 2007, 02:20:31 AM
If you guy want to talk about that last video posted could you start a new thread for it? I don't want to get too away from the design I'm working on. Its design is similar to mine in some ways but its a different device. Thanks,

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 25, 2007, 06:07:03 AM
It might be a good idea to use two outer rings for the stator. Basically take the complete stator as you have it drawn now and cut it in half separating the north rails from the south rails (cross-sectional cut) this would allow for adjustments to be made in the stators relative narrow point timing. One never knows what factors will need adjustment.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 25, 2007, 08:42:34 AM
d3,

I agree. That's why I was having a hard time finding a cheep way to build it without having multiply complex adjustment setups. I have a couple ideas but I haven't made graphics for them yet. I'll probably start with what ever specifications I find work best if at all on the linear setup and then transfer them straight to a curved plain. That means I would have to drill new mounting holes if I wanted to change there alignment. This really wouldn't be that hard just time consuming. I have some of that.

I don't think I can find any adjustment arms that are strong enough to hold the rails in place and that are non-magnetic. They would have to be custom built.

I have a simple idea for a one stator "crude" design using a couple bicycle rims which I would hope to find the right alignment for one and then simply transfer it to the others. I hope just one stator has enough to spin the wheel around.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 25, 2007, 11:31:53 PM
Here is a simple graphic of how I would like to build the first crude loop. I'm concerned with how great the arc of the magnet rails would be and with the fact that the magnet can't wobble. However, I hope once I get the linear prototype done I can set to see if I can run it in a straight line or not. The rails in the pictures are cut peaces of another bike rim with the magnets taped to the outer edge of the rim segment. This will either work really slick or not at all.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 26, 2007, 04:16:51 AM
looks good for a start.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 26, 2007, 05:03:15 AM
I just got the ring magnets in and WOW! Those things are strong. As I was cutting into the box my knife was being pulled in. That was a weird feeling. I should have time tomorrow to test it out using the ceramic disc rails. There is a good chance it wont work because Tom's rails had one made of Neos which are multiple times stronger. Something else that was funny is the three ring magnets had spacers between them. The spacers were MS word 6.0 floppy disks. They must not like word to put them that close to those magnets! 

Tim

d3, do you think the bike rim is good enough to start with or do you think its too small or might have other problems? I could fairly easily add arm extenders to the rim to make the diameter larger.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 26, 2007, 06:18:39 AM
If its a childs 10" rim it might be a problem, but if its a full size carbon fiber 10 speed as the pic shows the radi should be fine. For ease of construction for the first one, I would use two pieces of plywood with the radius cut to match the profile of the wheel. I trying to draw it in paint however my paint skill is lacking, take the two pieces of ply mounted to a base piece of ply. use a thin (1/8" melamine board) or even poster board to form the curvature to mount the rails. Total cost should be under 50 bucks. If you have a jigsaw, skillsaw and screwgun.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 26, 2007, 08:22:05 AM
I was kind of thinking the same thing. I do construction on the side so I have all the tools. So if I understand right your saying to tape the magnets for the rails to a strip of melamine board and then attach that to the curve in the plywood? This is a simple illustration below. Is this what you where thinking? The rims I have are full size. They have a 13" radius.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 26, 2007, 08:28:33 AM
A simple way possible to add a slide to the magnet so it can "wobble" through the fields is to add one of these side tracks to the outer edge of the rim and attach the magnet to it so it can slide side to side. Hopefully I'll know more in the next few days if I will need to do that.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 26, 2007, 08:50:33 AM
I was thinking I might as well get your input too on if I should use the bike rim or if I should build just a straight arm with a axle ($30)? Then I could make it bigger diameter if you think it would be better? The axle my not be as low friction as the bike wheel though.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 26, 2007, 08:00:33 PM
axles and hubs already built are always easier than doing yourself, I would start with the wheel. And again I will say this, I wish I was good at making those pictures everyone here seems to be able to blast out no problem, I can draw it by hand to scale in triple view, but I don't have the software to make it worth the time to do it on a comp. Anyways I digress, your pic is close, take both pieces of ply with like 120 degrees of arc, lined up side by side, then connected to both a thin plastic/paper board perpendicular to the ply, with whatever width you need to acomodate the mags, with a good staple gun you could glue and brad staple the plastic to the arc edge of the ply. Then you could make your rail assemblies and be able to move them for timing, you could cut another thing arc of ply and attach the rails to the side with some epoxy, attach anoth piece of plastic to the bottom of the rail ply and that would make it possible to clamp the rail to the stator arc anywhere you want. And worry about wobble after the prelim test. just to plug more info into your head, wobble linear vrs non wobble, gives a better understanding of its importance.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 26, 2007, 08:10:44 PM
d3'

Now I see what your saying about the plywood. Make kind of a skateboard half pipe ramp out of it?

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Low-Q on April 26, 2007, 11:03:03 PM
Here is a simple graphic of how I would like to build the first crude loop. I'm concerned with how great the arc of the magnet rails would be and with the fact that the magnet can't wobble. However, I hope once I get the linear prototype done I can set to see if I can run it in a straight line or not. The rails in the pictures are cut peaces of another bike rim with the magnets taped to the outer edge of the rim segment. This will either work really slick or not at all.

Tim
To ease the construction, you can make two long iron bars and use them as electromagnets. That way you can shape the magnets as you want. When you find a working shape, just replace the electromagnet with permanent magnets.

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 27, 2007, 12:05:06 AM
Well, I have been playing around with my ring magnet and the rails and I'm not finding the sweet spot Tom shows in his video. I was hoping it would be easy to find. What I have found is that I think Tom had his poles backwards. Like the graphic below but I could only make it work with the alignment shown in the photo with the poles the other way around. It gave the exact response Toms  did in the video but the problem is that you have to push it into the start. Its really not that hard to push in but it wants to push it back and away from the start.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 27, 2007, 12:29:28 AM
Here is a video of my rails. The pole alignment is opposite of what Tom said his where. At the beginning you can see the rails are pushing the ring back. Then I move it to the point where Tom's video starts and it acts exactly the way it does in Tom's video. Even with the little twist at the end.

Tim

Note: Let me know if you can see the video. I was having a little trouble with it. I'm also trying to post it to google so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 27, 2007, 04:20:30 AM
Is that the rotor mag you plan to use? its massive. And the sticky point becomes clear in your video. Its not hard to get things moving in front of the push effect of the magnetic pole. How thats gonna play into effect in a motor design is a bit hard to tell.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 27, 2007, 06:50:17 AM
The mag is the exact same as Tom used. I ordered it from the same supply company. All hope is not lost but I do think Tom's rail design isn't much better then a vgate if at all. The sticky point is weaker but so is the energy given to the magnet as it leaves. I have a couple ideas I want to play with and see if they work. I don't think I have seen anyone else use the three rotor arm and four stators setup where two or more are pushing when one is at the sticky spot? I am also thinking about not curving the rails so that as the rotor swings around it intersects the rail at the rails midway point. I'm not sure if this would really do any good but I am going to look into it. I also might play with a continuous track all the way around. I'm pretty sure this has been tried but I'm not sure.

One thing I did learn is that it can travel in a straight line through the rails.

I'll try to post pictures of some of these ideas when I can. Its a slight disappointment that Tom's video was misleading. Only a hundred or so dollars spent and probably a few more for poops and giggles!

Tim

Here is the video on google: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7603572750222216102&q=magnet+track+test+1&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7603572750222216102&q=magnet+track+test+1&hl=en)



Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Low-Q on April 27, 2007, 03:50:40 PM
Here is a video of my rails. The pole alignment is opposite of what Tom said his where. At the beginning you can see the rails are pushing the ring back. Then I move it to the point where Tom's video starts and it acts exactly the way it does in Tom's video. Even with the little twist at the end.

Tim

Note: Let me know if you can see the video. I was having a little trouble with it. I'm also trying to post it to google so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
The problem lays in the 6 first seconds of that video. The "solution" is to manually bypass the repelling force, but the same force in the end of this track will not be enough to push the rolling magnet into the 6 first seconds.

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 28, 2007, 01:49:48 AM
Here is a video of my rails. The pole alignment is opposite of what Tom said his where. At the beginning you can see the rails are pushing the ring back. Then I move it to the point where Tom's video starts and it acts exactly the way it does in Tom's video. Even with the little twist at the end.

Tim

Note: Let me know if you can see the video. I was having a little trouble with it. I'm also trying to post it to google so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
The problem lays in the 6 first seconds of that video. The "solution" is to manually bypass the repelling force, but the same force in the end of this track will not be enough to push the rolling magnet into the 6 first seconds.

Br.

Vidar

How about if you had two or maybe three times the force "of the end" of the track to "bypass" the same amount repelling at the start? In my three rotor four stator design I think you would have more force trying to rotate the wheel then any resistances trying to stop it at a sticky point? I'm not sure how to measure the exact amount.

Tim

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 28, 2007, 03:28:45 AM
Tim, yes just like a skateboard ramp.
@vidar I agree about the amount of energy entering > than energy leaving. Which is why I think a multi rotor/stator system would be needed, to do what tim said, have on rotor in accel midpoint, one in accel exit point, and one in entry. I think we can tune the shape of the first entry mag to direct the curves of force lines away from the rotor, and allow the rotor arm to move side to side, to "bounce" off that push.

Tim see if you can get one of the guys who is good with femm to input the quad stator design in and give it a run.

Also one possiblity is the halbach array for stator magnet setup. Countering/redirecting/reshaping the entry repulsion with another field. The only way shield a field is with another field. And also don't forget about bisuth. In the end it may be needed to call upon all of these things, to create a pecular arrangement that allows rotation.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 28, 2007, 03:58:00 AM
I was just surfing you tube and ran across this guy. Look close to what we are doing but with the rails on the wheel. I think he is over looking the same principle we are found. I can't tell conclusively but he might be pushing the disk into the stator at the start and not knowing it with gives it that shove and it takes off. I have messaged him about it and asked him to post a video showing that it isn't repelling the disk at the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iCppzXuXw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iCppzXuXw#)

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: TheOne on April 28, 2007, 05:39:34 AM
great video! he seam to not have any sticky spot!
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 28, 2007, 06:43:28 AM
But there is a curious slight accel as it gets to the end of the mags. Its hard to tell if he has a stick or not since he loads the disk into posistion. We will have to wait and see if he reposts.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 28, 2007, 07:01:34 AM
This is what I mailed him:

I have to ask you a question about your video. You say there is no gate but it seems like you have to push it into the stator magnet. I have worked with a lot of magnet "stuff" and I know that all you have to do it is get it past that first little repulsion zone at the beginning and it will take off. Please let me know if you have to push it at all into the stator. I have am working on vary similar things and I have connections and the resources to help. If you can post or send me another video just showing some how that you don't have to push/spin the disk into the stator. For your video to be conclusive it needs to show the rotor(s) being pulled into the stator. Please ask if you need any clarification.

His reply:

look at the vedio closely you will see that i push it in the right place so that the magnetic force of the stator magnet atracts the first incomeing rotor magnets i let the pointer and it start on its own and completes its journy to the other end of the set of magnets notice that it dont atractbut pushes it away from the one end there is a noticeble bounceing affect but thats to be expected and will be updateing more on smothing out that minor issue.


My Reply:

I have looked at it tens of times. I can't pinpoint it on the first time (that he displays it) but the second time I question at the time 1:57-1:58 the wheel rotates backwards for a split second while you take the pointer off the disk. Now even if there is some repulsion its not the end of the world. If its minimal and the inertia generated by it rotating is greater then that repulsion then your in business.

I want to ask you to joint a community at overunity.com Click the link below to check out a thread I am working on and talk with some of my fellow colleagues. Click the link below to go there. I have already informed them of your video.


http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2259.new.html#new



Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 28, 2007, 07:28:00 AM
This is a photo analysis.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 28, 2007, 07:39:37 AM
His are some ideas
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: TheOne on April 28, 2007, 07:40:48 AM
i think i begin to understand how his motor work

his 2 stator magnet are probably S at bottom (left) and N at bottom (right)

they are 2 ramp over the rotor, are faced nord (top)

the rotor work when the first magnet are between the 2 and the attraction start with the N pole of the first, the second magnet on the rotor continue and begin to be pulled off, but its hard to tell, i am quite not sure about the direction of the magnet but i think the first ramp interact in attraction and the second ramp work with repulsion
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on April 28, 2007, 08:00:53 AM
the creator seems resonable, I think he would probably share that info. Has anyone heard anymore on the bathbrush guy. Not to detrack from the thread, it was afterall looking to be a v gate style design(hwich is why I bring it up here)
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 28, 2007, 08:27:15 AM
I haven't heard a word about it for a little while.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Low-Q on April 28, 2007, 07:34:52 PM
Nice video, but there is two things that prevent this to rotate:
Right before the magnets are going under the stator magnet it is repelled backwards - look closely to the video. Then when the guy manually bypass this point it starts to rotate. However, the disc is also slowing down quite rapidly right after all the magnets has left the stator magnet. The answer to the guys question, about what's going to happend when the magnets are placed all around the disc, is that the disc will stand perfectly still. If it cannot run with fewer magnets, it does not run with all the magnets.

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: pese on April 28, 2007, 09:37:03 PM
It can also rolling down long the table WITHOUT MAGNETS !

If it rolls "DOWN" . (mechanic solution from an faked tabel)

So , not each video or pic , tell you "in first way" the true !

You must also think , that some people hunting for the money.
Pese
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on April 30, 2007, 09:27:46 PM
What size do you think those neo disc magnets are in the Magnetic spinner? 3/8,1/2"? How thick?

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on May 02, 2007, 12:23:35 AM
Does anyone think the "magnetic spinner" is worth replicating? I think I could replicate it for $20 or so using a plastic lazy Susan turn table and ceramic disc magnets (which I now have a lot of) or if I had to I could buy the same kind of neos. I'm sure I'll probably run into the same problem I had with Tom's rails but I wanted to see what you all though?

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on May 03, 2007, 03:02:35 AM
the spinner would be fun if you want to give it a go, however it won't work on a fixed axle (lazysuzan) the metal ball allows the donut magnet to change angles and posistion relative to the stator, if you lock it up it doesn't do much. Also use rectangle mag with a hole in the center, not just rectangles.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on May 03, 2007, 08:21:50 AM
the spinner would be fun if you want to give it a go, however it won't work on a fixed axle (lazysuzan) the metal ball allows the donut magnet to change angles and posistion relative to the stator, if you lock it up it doesn't do much. Also use rectangle mag with a hole in the center, not just rectangles.

Why do you say rectangles with a hole? You kind of lost me on the spinner comment. His spinner doesn't have a donut magnet?

I am also still working with the 3+ rotor with continuous/staggered track and perpendicular sliding rotor design. I have spent a few dollars already and I want to design it more before spending to much more. I have a feeling that the force generated by having 2 or more rotors in the middle/end(acceleration) of the tracks wanting to rotate the wheel is going to be far less then whats needed to push the 3rd rotor "around" the repulsion point. But I have now way of calculating this.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on May 04, 2007, 07:10:51 AM
I thought you were refering to the hamel spinner mag motor. Were you talking about the "brushed" motor design?
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on May 04, 2007, 07:34:48 AM
I thought you were refering to the hamel spinner mag motor. Were you talking about the "brushed" motor design?

I was talking about this "magnetic spinner" desgin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iCppzXuXw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iCppzXuXw)

I tried a simple reproduction using a 18" plastic turn table instead of this aluminum disc. I also used the 3/4" ceramic disk magnets from the rails I built instead of the neos and I had two of the rectangle magnets he had used in the video. My results were not that good. I couldn't find the polar configuration that would give me any kind of result like his. I haven't heard a word from him so I'm assuming he is either trying to build the full thing or had realized his oversights.

An update of my current design: I think I have ruled out using a sliding track like in the picture below and feel some kind of balanced hinge arm would be better. I will try to put some graphics together expressing this more. Let me try to solidify a design and figure a why to logically document and express it and I will post again.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Low-Q on May 04, 2007, 11:52:27 AM
Does anyone think the "magnetic spinner" is worth replicating? I think I could replicate it for $20 or so using a plastic lazy Susan turn table and ceramic disc magnets (which I now have a lot of) or if I had to I could buy the same kind of neos. I'm sure I'll probably run into the same problem I had with Tom's rails but I wanted to see what you all though?

Tim
You can try to replicate it. It seems quite straight forward - there are probably not very complicated math behind this disc...

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Charlie_V on May 12, 2007, 04:01:01 PM
I wouldn't waist your time doing it.  The only way to make a real permanent magnet motor is to figure out a cleaver way of changing the permanent magnet's field.  Magnets are made to give energy and take it back.  You see this all the time in the SMOTs.  They give the "runner" energy but then take it right back.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Omnibus on May 12, 2007, 05:31:57 PM
Actually, SMOT doesn't do that. SMOT produces excess energy from nothing.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: d3adp00l on May 13, 2007, 08:10:39 AM
Hey Tim long time no post how are things going?
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Charlie_V on May 13, 2007, 10:07:44 PM
Quote
Actually, SMOT doesn't do that. SMOT produces excess energy from nothing.

Ha, prove it.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Omnibus on May 13, 2007, 11:41:27 PM
On the contrary, I really mean energy is produced from nothing. Produced excess energy by SMOT is not withdrawn from the magnets neither is it withdrawn from any other source. See the proof here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1615.40.html
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Charlie_V on May 14, 2007, 02:38:46 AM
Quote
I have made a SMOT, nothing to prove other than how to close the loop and generate power form it.

I have also made a SMOT.  I have also seen people with closed loop SMOTs.  The ball will go around about 2-5 times then it stops.  If this was more energy out than in, the ball would keep going around forever. 

Omnibus,
I'm not sure what in that link proves that SMOTs are overunity. 

Listen, if the SMOT produces more energy than what is put in, then why can't you close the loop?  If it really did produce an access of energy, then a loop would make the ball go around and around faster and faster, like an amplifier does.  THE BALL STOPS.... nothing gained only lost.

The only energy gained is when the ball is accelerating in the magnetic field gradient.  When it reaches the maximum point in the gradient and attempts to leave, the magnets try to pull it back.  What energy was gained from the acceleration is lost at that moment.  If the pull back can be neutralized, then it will work.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Omnibus on May 14, 2007, 04:12:16 AM
I?m going to say it once again and I won?t repeat it. Making a self-sustaining SMOT is a purely engineering task, difficult at that, completely different from proving that SMOT produces excess energy. Therefore, don?t ask me again why I have not closed the loop. All I?m interested is whether or not SMOT violates the principle of conservation of energy and I have proven that it does. I?m not interested in the engineering aspect of applying that violation in a closed-loop device.

The following is incorrect:

?The only energy gained is when the ball is accelerating in the magnetic field gradient.  When it reaches the maximum point in the gradient and attempts to leave, the magnets try to pull it back.  What energy was gained from the acceleration is lost at that moment.  If the pull back can be neutralized, then it will work.?

and you can see why in the analysis from the link I gave you. Here it is again:

Take a look at http://omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif  (if the link doesn?t open try clicking on Go in the address line and then Reload). The energy the researcher spends to raise the ball from A to B is

Energy_spent = ?mgh1 +(Ma ? Mb).

The ball returns spontaneously along the B-C-A portion of the loop the energy:

Energy_obtained = +mgh1 +Mb = +mgh1 + mgh2 + (KE1 +RE2 +L1)

Where KE1 is the kinetic energy of the ball at C, RE1 is the rotational energy at C and L1 are the other energy losses at C. At point B? (not shown in the figure) the ball loses the height h2 and, respectively, loses its entire gravitational potential energy +mgh2 which at B? is transformed into [KE2 + RE2 +L2 + Mb?] where Mb? is the magnetic potential energy at point B? where the ball loses the height h2 (respectively, where the ball lose its entire +mgh2). Lumping the above terms together we get:

Energy_obtained = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb?

Therefore,

Energy_obtained ? Energy_spent = +mgh1 + [KE + RE +L] + Mb? - |?mgh1 +(Ma ? Mb)| = [KE + RE +L] +Mb? +Ma ?Mb > 0

Which is in violation of the principle of conservation of energy. The excess energy [KE + RE +L] +Mb? +Ma ?Mb produced has no source and is energy from nothing.
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Charlie_V on May 14, 2007, 02:15:43 PM
If L1 is a loss then it needs to be subtracted from the energy obtained.  The magnetic potential is (m*m'/r^2), where m and m' are the pole strengths between the permanent magnets and the steel ball, and r^2 is the distance between them.  At the point B', which I imagine is when the ball leaves the magnetic field, there is a potential force between the ball and the magnet pulling it back.  You do not address this in your formula.  If you do, you will see that the ball is actually losing energy at this point.  By the time the ball reaches point A, and gravity has converted its potential energy at mgh1 to kinetic, any added energy it obtained between B to C was lost at B'.  So it is the equivalent of just dropping the ball from mgh1 without the magnetic ramp. 

In an ideal case with no friction, the ball would loop around continuously, however, the friction and losses that you are adding to the energy gain (which need to be subtracted since it is a loss) drops the efficiency of the system to well below 100%.  Which is why the ball will not loop over and over.  The engineering problem is found at B', when the magnetic potential between the ball is trying to pull it back into the magnetic field.  Find a solution to this and your SMOT will actually work. 
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on May 15, 2007, 10:19:06 AM
Hey Tim long time no post how are things going?

Sorry D3',

My best friend got married last week and I was his best man so I was helping him out. I'm also waiting until this next week to possibly order so magnets from Magnets4less.com. They don't start shipping again until Monday. I do wan to run a few ideas on materials, tests and theories I have before I buy anything. I'll try to digitize all my notes tomorrow to get your input. Just to tease your brain I'm working with an idea of bending the magnetic fields of the rails to allow the wheel (rotors) to enter a rail at its midpoint and then curve the rail around the wheel. The basic idea is to move the repulsion zone as far away from the rotor(wheel) as possible. Its hard to explain quickly so stay tuned.

Tim
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Charlie_V on May 15, 2007, 02:27:09 PM
nwman,

You should use www.emovendo.net

That is where I order all my magnets, they are decently priced and very high quality.  Plus, I always receive them in no later than 3 days time (in the US). 
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: nwman on May 15, 2007, 10:19:12 PM
Thanks Charlie,

I think I will probably use Magnets4less because if I am planning on buying up to 200 magnets there prices are far cheaper. However I will probably us emovendo to buy the rotor magnets because I only need3 or four of them. Magnets for less has a minimum order of like 30.

Tim

More to come.....
Title: Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
Post by: Charlie_V on May 17, 2007, 03:30:00 AM
Emovendo will cut you deals, even though they don't have it posted on their website.  I bought 150 magnets from them and they gave me a pretty good deal - I had to ask for it of course.  I mainly like their website because all the magnets are N48.  I don't think they have any below that value.