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Author Topic: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.  (Read 26969 times)

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2007, 08:28:33 AM »
A simple way possible to add a slide to the magnet so it can "wobble" through the fields is to add one of these side tracks to the outer edge of the rim and attach the magnet to it so it can slide side to side. Hopefully I'll know more in the next few days if I will need to do that.

Tim

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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2007, 08:50:33 AM »
I was thinking I might as well get your input too on if I should use the bike rim or if I should build just a straight arm with a axle ($30)? Then I could make it bigger diameter if you think it would be better? The axle my not be as low friction as the bike wheel though.

Tim

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2007, 08:00:33 PM »
axles and hubs already built are always easier than doing yourself, I would start with the wheel. And again I will say this, I wish I was good at making those pictures everyone here seems to be able to blast out no problem, I can draw it by hand to scale in triple view, but I don't have the software to make it worth the time to do it on a comp. Anyways I digress, your pic is close, take both pieces of ply with like 120 degrees of arc, lined up side by side, then connected to both a thin plastic/paper board perpendicular to the ply, with whatever width you need to acomodate the mags, with a good staple gun you could glue and brad staple the plastic to the arc edge of the ply. Then you could make your rail assemblies and be able to move them for timing, you could cut another thing arc of ply and attach the rails to the side with some epoxy, attach anoth piece of plastic to the bottom of the rail ply and that would make it possible to clamp the rail to the stator arc anywhere you want. And worry about wobble after the prelim test. just to plug more info into your head, wobble linear vrs non wobble, gives a better understanding of its importance.

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2007, 08:00:33 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2007, 08:10:44 PM »
d3'

Now I see what your saying about the plywood. Make kind of a skateboard half pipe ramp out of it?

Tim

Offline Low-Q

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2007, 11:03:03 PM »
Here is a simple graphic of how I would like to build the first crude loop. I'm concerned with how great the arc of the magnet rails would be and with the fact that the magnet can't wobble. However, I hope once I get the linear prototype done I can set to see if I can run it in a straight line or not. The rails in the pictures are cut peaces of another bike rim with the magnets taped to the outer edge of the rim segment. This will either work really slick or not at all.

Tim
To ease the construction, you can make two long iron bars and use them as electromagnets. That way you can shape the magnets as you want. When you find a working shape, just replace the electromagnet with permanent magnets.

Br.

Vidar

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2007, 11:03:03 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2007, 12:05:06 AM »
Well, I have been playing around with my ring magnet and the rails and I'm not finding the sweet spot Tom shows in his video. I was hoping it would be easy to find. What I have found is that I think Tom had his poles backwards. Like the graphic below but I could only make it work with the alignment shown in the photo with the poles the other way around. It gave the exact response Toms  did in the video but the problem is that you have to push it into the start. Its really not that hard to push in but it wants to push it back and away from the start.

Tim

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2007, 12:29:28 AM »
Here is a video of my rails. The pole alignment is opposite of what Tom said his where. At the beginning you can see the rails are pushing the ring back. Then I move it to the point where Tom's video starts and it acts exactly the way it does in Tom's video. Even with the little twist at the end.

Tim

Note: Let me know if you can see the video. I was having a little trouble with it. I'm also trying to post it to google so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 01:23:09 AM by nwman »

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2007, 12:29:28 AM »
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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2007, 04:20:30 AM »
Is that the rotor mag you plan to use? its massive. And the sticky point becomes clear in your video. Its not hard to get things moving in front of the push effect of the magnetic pole. How thats gonna play into effect in a motor design is a bit hard to tell.

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2007, 06:50:17 AM »
The mag is the exact same as Tom used. I ordered it from the same supply company. All hope is not lost but I do think Tom's rail design isn't much better then a vgate if at all. The sticky point is weaker but so is the energy given to the magnet as it leaves. I have a couple ideas I want to play with and see if they work. I don't think I have seen anyone else use the three rotor arm and four stators setup where two or more are pushing when one is at the sticky spot? I am also thinking about not curving the rails so that as the rotor swings around it intersects the rail at the rails midway point. I'm not sure if this would really do any good but I am going to look into it. I also might play with a continuous track all the way around. I'm pretty sure this has been tried but I'm not sure.

One thing I did learn is that it can travel in a straight line through the rails.

I'll try to post pictures of some of these ideas when I can. Its a slight disappointment that Tom's video was misleading. Only a hundred or so dollars spent and probably a few more for poops and giggles!

Tim

Here is the video on google: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7603572750222216102&q=magnet+track+test+1&hl=en




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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2007, 06:50:17 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2007, 03:50:40 PM »
Here is a video of my rails. The pole alignment is opposite of what Tom said his where. At the beginning you can see the rails are pushing the ring back. Then I move it to the point where Tom's video starts and it acts exactly the way it does in Tom's video. Even with the little twist at the end.

Tim

Note: Let me know if you can see the video. I was having a little trouble with it. I'm also trying to post it to google so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
The problem lays in the 6 first seconds of that video. The "solution" is to manually bypass the repelling force, but the same force in the end of this track will not be enough to push the rolling magnet into the 6 first seconds.

Br.

Vidar

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2007, 01:49:48 AM »
Here is a video of my rails. The pole alignment is opposite of what Tom said his where. At the beginning you can see the rails are pushing the ring back. Then I move it to the point where Tom's video starts and it acts exactly the way it does in Tom's video. Even with the little twist at the end.

Tim

Note: Let me know if you can see the video. I was having a little trouble with it. I'm also trying to post it to google so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
The problem lays in the 6 first seconds of that video. The "solution" is to manually bypass the repelling force, but the same force in the end of this track will not be enough to push the rolling magnet into the 6 first seconds.

Br.

Vidar

How about if you had two or maybe three times the force "of the end" of the track to "bypass" the same amount repelling at the start? In my three rotor four stator design I think you would have more force trying to rotate the wheel then any resistances trying to stop it at a sticky point? I'm not sure how to measure the exact amount.

Tim

Tim

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2007, 01:49:48 AM »
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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2007, 03:28:45 AM »
Tim, yes just like a skateboard ramp.
@vidar I agree about the amount of energy entering > than energy leaving. Which is why I think a multi rotor/stator system would be needed, to do what tim said, have on rotor in accel midpoint, one in accel exit point, and one in entry. I think we can tune the shape of the first entry mag to direct the curves of force lines away from the rotor, and allow the rotor arm to move side to side, to "bounce" off that push.

Tim see if you can get one of the guys who is good with femm to input the quad stator design in and give it a run.

Also one possiblity is the halbach array for stator magnet setup. Countering/redirecting/reshaping the entry repulsion with another field. The only way shield a field is with another field. And also don't forget about bisuth. In the end it may be needed to call upon all of these things, to create a pecular arrangement that allows rotation.

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2007, 03:58:00 AM »
I was just surfing you tube and ran across this guy. Look close to what we are doing but with the rails on the wheel. I think he is over looking the same principle we are found. I can't tell conclusively but he might be pushing the disk into the stator at the start and not knowing it with gives it that shove and it takes off. I have messaged him about it and asked him to post a video showing that it isn't repelling the disk at the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iCppzXuXw#

Tim

Offline TheOne

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2007, 05:39:34 AM »
great video! he seam to not have any sticky spot!

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2007, 06:43:28 AM »
But there is a curious slight accel as it gets to the end of the mags. Its hard to tell if he has a stick or not since he loads the disk into posistion. We will have to wait and see if he reposts.

 

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