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Author Topic: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.  (Read 27144 times)

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2007, 04:17:36 AM »
I have three shipments of magnets coming in hopfully soon. However mags4less or whatever isn't gonna ship anything for a couple weeks, which puts off the full scale of what I want to do. And I still can't find the gears I want, and the couple I have right now, my machinist can't remeber where he got them from. I love working with people who have no particular care about projects like this. I will have to dismantle part of my frame to take the parts in to have it matched, but maybe in a couple weeks I might have something to show for it all. I also have about 2lbs of bismuth coming in for fun.

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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2007, 06:53:27 PM »
Does anyone have anything to say? I would appreciate any feed back positive or negative. Thanks,

Tim

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2007, 07:40:04 PM »
Hi Tim,

Its me. I am following you.  I believe you are on the right track and hope everything works out where you can bring this to the next CIRCULAR level.

From what I saw in the linear form the runner magnet starts to pick up speed just like magnets in a rail gun. 

Think of the power of two 4.5 inch diameter runner magnets mounted like you have illustrated and rotating fast.  It would be awsome if the concept works.

In my last movie I showed a rotating turntable with two 4.5 inch magnets mounted on it.  My power ring idea did not work out. --- So---Next I am going to try some sort of outer cylinder around the rotating rotor turntable with a staggered track configuration of magnets lining the walls.  Check out the rotating cylinder wall magnet configuration in this movie.

Note:  I see a shadow of a fast moving arm just as the cylinder rotates-- Question if it was given a hand spin leading to wrong assumptions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzdfk66CmLc       


Tom
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 08:15:48 PM by magnetman12003 »

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2007, 07:40:04 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2007, 10:30:14 PM »
Tom,

I agree, there is something fishy about that video. What he is talking about when he says something about using one set of magnets to pull another set through the sticky spot is a valid idea. However, every time I see one of those video and 90% of it is about a better tomorrow or some political/ philanthropically idea rather then the scientific break through in technology and how the mechanics work I think its just a hokes or some school project to make a convincing video for a class. It sounds too much like a sales pitch then scientific presentation.

Tim 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2007, 10:50:16 PM »
I believe it will work this way:

When the rotor magnet is approaching the stator magnet it meets a weak, and gradually stronger magnetic field, over a relatively long distance, as it approach further. The drawback however, is where the rotor magnet is going to leave the narrowest end of the stator magnets. The sum of attraction forces is namely the same in both directions, but it is weaker and over a longer distance at the widest end, and strong over a short distance at the narrowest end of the stator magnet.

Well, I have learn that if a magnet is going to continuously push another magnet more in one direction than in the other, the magnetic field must alter - as it doesn't in a permanent magnet. The tricky part is to find a way to close this loop, find a way to alter the magnetic field without consuming energy that will force the rotor as much in the opposite direction.

How do you solve that? I believe this is one of the questions you want some answers to. I have unfortunately not, but I know only the principals about how it must work, to work:

When using permanent magnets as power, it is no problem to alter the magnetic field from strong to weak - it is just to alter the distance in one end as shown in your drawings. The problem however is where the magnetic lines lays in that configuration. The magnetic field will always be strongest and with continuous strength all the time at the narrowest point forcing the rotor magnet to attract to this point.
In an altering magnetic field caused by supplying external power, the magnetic lines can be arranged quite similar, but the field where it used to be strongest is suddenly weaker, or gone, in an appropriate moment - just where the rotor magnet has passed the strongest field of the stator magnet. So there is suddenly no force to pull the rotor magnet back in the opposite direction.

So, if one are able to alter or weaken a magnetic field, when appropriate, without using energy and alter the magnetic path, the solution to make a real permanent magnet motor is present. A material that will help to solve this, have the properties to absorb magnetic field without altering the magnetic path close to it where this material is present.
A material that will cast a magnetic shadow. Magnetic materials are not an option.

Br.

Vidar

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2007, 10:50:16 PM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2007, 11:10:48 PM »
Low-Q,

To some extent I agree with what you said. However in regard to the design I have presented and from the video of the physical experiment using actual observation, and not theory, it seems this configuration does allow the magnet to pass through the "sticky spot" without having the shield  or weaken anything. Thus, if what we saw in the video is accurate then the problem is simple to loop the ring magnet back through the rails? Even if the experiment in the video was misleading I think using a midpoint rotor assembly would allow for multiple rotors to be in the acceleration point in the rails while only one is trying to break free of the "sticky spot". My assumption would then be if the attraction force is equal to the repelling force then by having two or more attracting would have twice or more force needed to push one free of the rails. That would start the whole process over again.

Tim

Offline Static_8

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2007, 01:49:52 AM »
This was my take on the spinner
The missing magnet was the big deal.
I haven't tested it yet, need more magnets....
Also the spacing between the rotor and stator...it ran when the rotor was
at a slight distance away from the stator.
I am guessing at the polarity's in the attached drawing..
Anyone CAD run it yet?

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2007, 01:49:52 AM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2007, 02:20:31 AM »
If you guy want to talk about that last video posted could you start a new thread for it? I don't want to get too away from the design I'm working on. Its design is similar to mine in some ways but its a different device. Thanks,

Tim

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2007, 06:07:03 AM »
It might be a good idea to use two outer rings for the stator. Basically take the complete stator as you have it drawn now and cut it in half separating the north rails from the south rails (cross-sectional cut) this would allow for adjustments to be made in the stators relative narrow point timing. One never knows what factors will need adjustment.

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2007, 06:07:03 AM »
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Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2007, 08:42:34 AM »
d3,

I agree. That's why I was having a hard time finding a cheep way to build it without having multiply complex adjustment setups. I have a couple ideas but I haven't made graphics for them yet. I'll probably start with what ever specifications I find work best if at all on the linear setup and then transfer them straight to a curved plain. That means I would have to drill new mounting holes if I wanted to change there alignment. This really wouldn't be that hard just time consuming. I have some of that.

I don't think I can find any adjustment arms that are strong enough to hold the rails in place and that are non-magnetic. They would have to be custom built.

I have a simple idea for a one stator "crude" design using a couple bicycle rims which I would hope to find the right alignment for one and then simply transfer it to the others. I hope just one stator has enough to spin the wheel around.

Tim

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2007, 11:31:53 PM »
Here is a simple graphic of how I would like to build the first crude loop. I'm concerned with how great the arc of the magnet rails would be and with the fact that the magnet can't wobble. However, I hope once I get the linear prototype done I can set to see if I can run it in a straight line or not. The rails in the pictures are cut peaces of another bike rim with the magnets taped to the outer edge of the rim segment. This will either work really slick or not at all.

Tim

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2007, 11:31:53 PM »
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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2007, 04:16:51 AM »
looks good for a start.

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2007, 05:03:15 AM »
I just got the ring magnets in and WOW! Those things are strong. As I was cutting into the box my knife was being pulled in. That was a weird feeling. I should have time tomorrow to test it out using the ceramic disc rails. There is a good chance it wont work because Tom's rails had one made of Neos which are multiple times stronger. Something else that was funny is the three ring magnets had spacers between them. The spacers were MS word 6.0 floppy disks. They must not like word to put them that close to those magnets! 

Tim

d3, do you think the bike rim is good enough to start with or do you think its too small or might have other problems? I could fairly easily add arm extenders to the rim to make the diameter larger.

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2007, 06:18:39 AM »
If its a childs 10" rim it might be a problem, but if its a full size carbon fiber 10 speed as the pic shows the radi should be fine. For ease of construction for the first one, I would use two pieces of plywood with the radius cut to match the profile of the wheel. I trying to draw it in paint however my paint skill is lacking, take the two pieces of ply mounted to a base piece of ply. use a thin (1/8" melamine board) or even poster board to form the curvature to mount the rails. Total cost should be under 50 bucks. If you have a jigsaw, skillsaw and screwgun.

Offline nwman

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Re: New Stagger Stator PMM Design. Review wanted before construction.
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2007, 08:22:05 AM »
I was kind of thinking the same thing. I do construction on the side so I have all the tools. So if I understand right your saying to tape the magnets for the rails to a strip of melamine board and then attach that to the curve in the plywood? This is a simple illustration below. Is this what you where thinking? The rims I have are full size. They have a 13" radius.

Tim

 

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