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Author Topic: Source of energy, Testatika  (Read 213404 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2012, 06:16:01 PM »
Actually there is another explanation, that of a hoax or fraud. I wish that it wasn't so; the Testatika is the most intriguing of many devices I've thought about over the years, by far.

All of the phenomena of the Testatika can be duplicated, I believe, by a simple, if rather large, inductive power transmission/reception system. The Testatika machine itself includes the bare minimum components of an inductive power receiver: coils of wire, capacitors, mineral crystal diodes, resistive/inductive loads, as well as perhaps some superfluous or spurious components. The transmission loops and other components of the wireless inductive transmission system could have been concealed in the walls or tables or otherwise nearby the operating machines.

I can't immediately see how the disks are made to turn by the received power, but certainly an external load can be energised quite well by the visible components of a Testatika, driven by a concealed inductive wireless power transmission system, which itself is getting its power in the normal manner.

I didn't know about the sparking that had been observed, thanks for telling me that. But what started me thinking more heavily about the inductive system was the fact, mentioned above, that I also didn't know: the Testatika doesn't work in a Faraday cage. Wow.

Static machines like Wimshurst or Bonetti, which the Testatika resembles, work just fine inside a Faraday cage, in fact maybe even better than outside.
But inductive wireless power transfer systems do not work "through" a Faraday cage screen.

A Bonetti machine operating inside a large complete Faraday screen room:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYGFqkXjwZc

An inductive wireless power transfer system that does NOT work thru a Faraday screen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoq5C7ecRdU

In a different video, off topic, I show that that same system can't transmit through a Faraday screen. So you could imagine, in the latter video, that the transmitting loop was all around the demonstration room in the walls, and the coils and caps and diodes of the Testatika machine are receiving, detecting and rectifying the power, and allowing some to be used to power the usual bank of lights or other external loads, and some of it is used in a clever motor arrangement to drive the disks and commutate the DC into.... AC at the mains frequency, 50 or 60 Hz depending on the segments. It actually all could fit.
 :-[





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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2012, 06:16:01 PM »

Offline Shanti

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2012, 10:47:04 AM »
Quote
But the air ion theory as the energy source for the testatika does not stand up to scrutiny. The fine weather earth atmosphere conduction current is 2 x 10^-16 amps/sq cm. or 2 X 10^-12 amps/sq metre,  see B.F Schonland "Atmospheric Electricity" page 41 and Chapter 2  Electric Fields and Atmospheric Electric Currents.


Yes, this is exactly why I said, that IMHO the machine ionizes the air, and doesn't collect the air ions. For then it is not limited by the natural atmospheric ion flow, but only by the local saturation of the e-field.
There could even be no natural ions, and it would still work like that. The only thing you need, is the earth e-field and an open connection to the atmosphere.

Quote
It seems to me that the only other possibilities are some sort of free energy discovery or radioactivity such as Moray and Hubbard and others used used 90 years ago.
As already mentioned: IMHO way too many points speak against the radioactive power theory. And I could even name a lot more points, which speak against this theory.
Sure there remains the possibility, that the machine worked on a completely unknown discovery.
But then we would still have the explanations from Methernitha that:
* it worked with air ions
* the machine stopped after a while in a closed room.
* the machine didn't work in a faraday cage
* the machine did output more power during a thunderstorm
* the basic idea of the machine was inspired by observing lightning flashes
* they couldn't size the machines up.

And all these points would IMHO be consistent with the air ionization theory, whereas I see no reason, how they could match the radioactive power theory. And i personally didn't yet find any other theory matching these statements. This is why I personally currently hold this theory as the most likely.

 BTW: I personally really think that e.g. Moray's device didn't get its power due to radioactive sources. Then why should he have needed such a big antenna (which was even oriented according to the earths magnetic field) ? Just as a priming signal ? Come on...
A hint to me is that during a long run test of the device, they reported an unusual good sunny weather for the time of the year...
But that's another story, and surely offtopic here.

Quote
Actually there is another explanation, that of a hoax or fraud.

Sure there is always the possibility of a hoax. But IMHO too many points speak against a hoax. First. To transmit that amount of power inductively, is almost impossible if you don't have a coupling of very short distance. E.g. Tesla still needed quite big receiving inductors to get that, not to mention the size of the sending inductor. Also if you look at the Intel transmitting system, they also needed quite big inductances. Simply because you need that enough field lines go through your inductor surface. Also it was possible to hold the machines oriented anyway you liked, when they were running, which would be a disaster for an inductive coupling.
Or said otherwise. If you manage to transmit that amount of power with such a bad coupling, then this would be a real feat, and then your neighbors wouldn't be very happy, for obvious reasons...

Also in one of the reports it is stated, that the visitor was for a time alone in the room, and he looked everywhere if there's some inductive coupling circuit in the room, under the table, etc., but didn't find anything.

It would also be completely illogical, that they themselves point out, that they tested it, and the machine doesn't work in a Faraday-cage. Why should they tell that if it was a fake? No visitor ever saw this test.

When S&S tested the machine under load with measuring instruments, they could even take the machine apart before the test. So there are IMHO not many remaining possibilities to fake here.

Also the history of the machines point into the direction that this was no fake. Why should they have made these huge machines?  Just the used perspex alone was already extremely costly. And they certainly wouldn't have been needed just to pull off a fraud.


But I personally think it is quite likely, that the machine didn't had the power output as declared. So in this relation they maybe bent the truth a little... On the other hand, AFAIK they never explicitly said, that the machine would deliver 3kW continuously.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 03:33:31 PM by Shanti »

Offline Shanti

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #122 on: October 28, 2012, 09:18:48 PM »
@Mike:
Actually it would be interesting, when your friend's friend heard from Bosshard about the problems with the big machines. Do you know in which year this was?


@Stefan:
IMHO it would be very interesting to know in which context Mr Bosshard said to you that "the secret lies in the crystals".
Were you talking about the power source of the Testatika, or the Testatika in general, or just some random talk about this and that?


I'm still asking myself what Mr Bosshard actually knows. E.g. in the Net-Journal from Jan/Feb 2004 is an interview with a visitor from 1999. He reports that he asked Mr Bosshard, if radioactive materials are used. Then Mr Bosshard asked this question to Mr Baumann, and he said no.
But why did he have to ask Mr Baumann this question. This seems to me, as if Mr Bosshard, at least at that time (which was quite late, related to the machines history) didn't really knew details of the machine.


Also in the Net-Journal Sept/Okt 2011, there is a passage, where Mr Bosshard tells, what Mr Baumann told him, and this is only a very slight hint, on how the machine does work. Why should he have hinted Mr Bosshard such a thing, if Mr Bosshard actually knew the secret. Would seem strange to me.

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #122 on: October 28, 2012, 09:18:48 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #123 on: October 29, 2012, 03:14:31 AM »
 ;)

Offline mikewatson

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2012, 12:37:30 PM »
Marinov visited Methernita in the late 1980's-early 1990's. See "Thorny Way of Truth Part V, there is the account of his visit (In German). Marinoy told me he handled the little single disk machine. He had to spin the disk to start it and he could easily stop it by putting a finger on the rim, there was a small resistance to the disk stalling and then the disk motion would suddenly stop with no further activity unless the disk was manually spun again. Marinov thought that the Testatika was based on the rotating ampere bridge, which Marinov thought was reaction-less. Later Marinov's friend Prof. Pappas proved that the ampere bridge was not reaction-less (did not violate the laws of energy conservation).
Another story roughly like this:- when Baumann was in prison (for some years) he made a simple device in the prison workshop to give him light to read at night after the prison lights were off. It consisted of a horizontal plastic strip or paddle with wire gauze or mesh at each end. This was moved back and forth horizontally over similar fixed gauze mesh pads mounted on a base. Electricity generated was stored in something (capacitor ?)to give him light at night. It was said that "Baumann was never without light at night" presumably to read by. So it is based something simple, which a Swiss watchmaker could easily get in prison.
Stefan Hartmann, moderator of this site (?) visited Methernita and produced a report,which I have somewhere so (if it is him) he may be able to cast more light (excuse the pun) on this subject.


Mike

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2012, 12:37:30 PM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #125 on: October 30, 2012, 02:56:06 PM »
@Mike:
So did I understand you correctly, that you don't know anymore, from whom you had this information with the upscaling problem? But that maybe this information was from Stefan?
I refer to your message No 571 in the yahoo group from 2002:
Quote
A friend of mine recently visited Methernitha. Bossard told him that the big machines did not work, they were currently unable to scale up the machines for reasons that were not clear even to them.



BTW: Do you know, if Marinov again visited Methernitha and saw the machines after he wrote TTWT V?
For in TTWT V he writes that he only saw the two small machines and big machine in the works. So it would be interesting, if he ever saw the 3kW machine at a later time, or if he never saw it.

Offline mikewatson

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2012, 06:50:18 PM »
@Shanti


If I remember correctly it was Marinov who said that Bauman (or possibly Cathomen the builder of the Testatika machines) had told him they were unable to scale up the size of the machine. It was not clear either if the machines would work continuously. The facts speak for themselves,  despite the intervening 18 or so years electricity at Methernita is not provided by a number of testatikas but by the electricity supply company.
They told Marinov that if he joined their inner group and swore to keep the secret they would tell him how the testatika worked. Marinov refused because he said it was against the scientific ethic. It is not clear to me how many times Marinov visited Methernta.
Mike


 

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2012, 06:50:18 PM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2012, 08:26:36 AM »
Thanks.
I always thought before it couldn't have been Marinov, for he died in 1997, and in your message from 2002 you said, that your friend "recently" was in Linden and spoke with Mr Bosshard.

Offline mikewatson

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »
Here is an interesting excerpt from someones visit to Bauman:-
http://www.rexresearch.com/testatik/testart.htm.[/size]

It was really impressive! One can hardly believe it, with this slow rotation. In any case, this cannot be explained in terms of bare electrostatics in the sense of the Wimshurst machine. The perforated sheets seem to have a key function... Beside the pick-up and the drive electrodes there are a number of small plexiglass blocks with glued-on perforated sheets, whose function is unknown.[/size]

As Adolf Schneider already mentioned, my colleague Bernhard XXX and I want to try to copy the principle experiment shown by Baumann --- without much hope to find anything extraordinary, though.[/size]
The device consists of a horizontal swiveling plexiglass arm with a small rectangular plexiglass plate at both ends glued to the lower side of the arm. The lower side of the arm is covered with perforated aluminum sheets (square holes), while the bottom of the plates is covered with brass wire mesh. Beneath each plate five additional plates are glued onto the base plate. There is also wire mesh between each pair of plates in the two blocks. From the mesh layer between the lowest plate and the base a wire goes to the two capacitors, which are connected in parallel . Baumann seized the arm with both hands and turned it about ten times back and forth (a full rotation was not possible, because the capacitors were in the way), then measured the DC voltage with a digital measuring instrument: 60 Volts. Then, as he short-circuited the condensers a loud crack could be heard. I donĀ“t know if that already is an abnormal result...[/size]
On my question Baumann replied that with metal foil (instead of wire mesh) the device would not produce that effect.[/size]

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »
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Offline gauschor

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #129 on: November 01, 2012, 06:51:48 PM »
Stumbled on this as well. Thanks for reposting it. Building up tension by the use of these plexiglass/metal blocks seems to be essential. Another most interesting aspect in here is, that the rotor didn't touch the blocks. So there was no friction. And the finished Testatika neither had direct contact with pickup brushes. It's also noteworthy to mention that he may have "charged" the rotor by the act of putting his hands around it.

I've always started with some kind of Wimshurst or Toepler device to produce electrostatic energy, but maybe this approach was a mistake. Maybe this exact experiment above must replicated successfully first in order to understand the Testatika. Maybe something about the energy produced using Paul Baumann's way is different or more efficient than the usual approach.

There is something unclear about this prototype experiment though: it is said that layers of aluminium and brass are used. But then again one may remember that it was told, that the metal meshes on the disc of the testatika were slightly magnetized. Here's the problem: you can't magnetise aluminium or brass... so what kind of metal was it really? Iron?


Edit: ah ok, I guess I have my answer when looking at this picture:so the grid on the rotor is (although with "?") labeled as steel. It definitely is something that can be magnetized then.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #130 on: November 02, 2012, 01:13:40 AM »
You can take an ordinary air variable capacitor, a high-voltage one like is used in ham transmitters, and which can have its movable plates rotated 360 degrees. Drive this capacitor with a motor and you will see voltage generated at its terminals. Put a diode in there and you can actually charge up a battery or capacitor. The "Principle Experiment" is only lacking either a diode or a commutator/switch, to be able to charge up capacitors by the same means, I think.

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #130 on: November 02, 2012, 01:13:40 AM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #131 on: November 02, 2012, 08:00:33 AM »
IMHO it surely is no problem to generate HV with such kind of device, but that doesn't give you anything in excess. The question is: Where does the extra energy come from, and how?
Someone just posted an article from an old book from Inge Schneider. In it there's an interview with Mr Bosshard. And an interesting part of this interview is the following:


Mr Schneider:
 I do have a certain idea, how the Testatika could work. Energy doesn't come from
 nothing, but from the atmosphere. It is known, that the atmosphere, the weather,
 has an enormous energy in it. It is, for example eerie, the amount of energy
 which is set free during a Tornado. On the Testatika, I guess, electricity is
 drawn from the atmosphere by electrons and then utilized.

 Mr Bosshard:
 Yes, I can tell you, I'm not a technician, and only have had a physics
 education, but for me it was a revelation, when I did understand the principle.
 The machine works according to the ordering principle, just like also the
 Tornado does. A law is activated, which aims for a order, pointing to the
 center, and there the energies get unlimited at the end.
 To stay on the machine topic: What does it do?
 It orders the positive and negative parts in the atmosphere - exactly how they
 exist in a thunderstorm. A polarization of opposed forces is developed, an
 order, a voltage field in between, and this is efficiency. Ordering equals
 efficiency. This is the basic law, which is true.
 [...]


So it seems, like Mr Baumann explained to him the basic functional principle, but IMHO it doesn't seem that he new details on how this is then actually practically done in the machines.

Offline gauschor

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #132 on: November 02, 2012, 10:47:36 AM »
@TinselKoala: but there's the point: if I use a motor it's like that: let's say the motor drives at about 50 revolutions/second and does this for 10 seconds to charge the capacitor up, then it's a minimum of 500 rps already. Compared to that, Baumann only needed 10 rotations to charge up the cap. Something in Baumann's principle experiment setup must have been overly efficient.

Offline mikewatson

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2012, 01:04:04 PM »
It seems to me the only way it would be possible to get that much energy from such a small and simple device as Baumann demonstrated is by the use of radium bromide, which was then readily available as luminous paint for clock and watch dials. I have here a small ww2 era radioactive instrument pointer and it produces a respectable number of clicks on a geiger counter.

Here is an effect discovered by Maby and Franklin in ww2 but forgotten:-
Take geiger counter,  put on it a radioactive source, alpha or beta emitter such as a vintage camping gas mantle from ebay(not all modern ones are radioactive) as an alpha source or salt substitute (potassium chloride) which is naturally radioactive due to the presence of potassium 40 (see wikipedia:-potassium 40)  for a beta emitter.
Use a laptop and a data collection device to read the geiger clicks with respect to time and show them on a laptop. Wait until a vehicle passes and you will see (and hear) the geiger clicks/second  speed up and slow down in a wavelike way as the vehicle passes.
This effect was called the "mass wave" by Glasewski around 1950. Note the total decay rate remains unaltered because the increase in decay rate is followed by a decrease in decay rate in a wavelike manner.
Perhaps something similar was used by Baumann.
 

Offline Shanti

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Re: Source of energy, Testatika
« Reply #134 on: November 02, 2012, 02:11:28 PM »
Did you ever do the math how strong the radioactive decay actually would have had to be?
Let's assume if it is possible to somehow stimulate the decay. But this stimulation would not need to have a factor of 1000s, but of millions or billions.
And if we now would really be able to get this stimulated strong decay, then you surely would not be able to convert it 100% to electricity. That's just not possible.
E.g. if we look at conventional nucleid batteries, then their efficiency is terrible. Even if you would somehow find a possibility that you can make the conversion more efficient, then still a lot of waste heat would have been produced. But all visitors stated that they couldn't detect any heat raise on the machines (nor could they detect any cooling of the device).
Also in this interview from Bosshard, he again points out, that any increasing/stimulation of the natural decay to get energy is against nature.
I personally really do not believe they would ever have made anything in that direction, as it would have been strongly against their beliefs and way of living.

 

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