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Author Topic: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor  (Read 234416 times)

broli

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2008, 07:09:17 PM »
Yeah sorry for that. This actually happened two times not the same scenario. First the 0 byte, then after I finished making an even nicer drawing it crashed without saving anything  ;D. So I got frustrated and left it. But I'll make a new drawing now.

Edit: Oke done and attached to this post.

i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2008, 09:17:18 PM »
i_ron, I was thinking today. What if you reversed the polarity on the coil in the last experiment. What I predict is that you can barely hold anything. But it could not work due your setup.

A better setup would be using half of what wizkycho proposed namely what you can see in the image below. I and I bet others would really appreciate this experiment!



broli,

K, thanks, but I am not really following you. I think your sketch would work, but I don't see any advantage?  And yes if I reverse the polarity there is no effect.

Here is a chart to better illustrate the advantage of the power gain in this setup.
There are three patents (and/or pending) on this, Jack's, Genesis, and Flynn. This is better than
the parallel path model in that what I found is it didn't want to switch if a bar was not present. This
copy of Jack's and Genesis is a strong switcher and reaches out for the bar a considerable distance.

Pardon me if I work in imperial for some of the measurements. To explain the setup... I have used
a long arm because the core and bar are not radius ed. The Matzuo digital scale measures up to
50 pounds so is not as precise as one might wish at this level. to help out I have used a 2:1 ratio
on the arm and dived the result by two. The Matzuo is of a strain gauge construction and thus the
chain does not extend or contract but maintains a relatively constant dimension. So I was able to
use the 10 thread per inch slide directly as one turn per division, hence the .1 inch scale on the chart.

With a 1 inch square bar and 1 inch core thichness, I have started the test at .3 inch (8mm) ahead
of first alignment. That means the number four on the chart is with the core and bar edge to edge.

The test finishes with the core fully covered by the bar at number 14. The picture shows the start of the test with the bar .3 inches below the core.

Now one thing that should be clear from this dynamic test is not only is the combined force stronger but is of a longer duration.

Incidentally, the test picture is without the magnet stack...

Ron
(http://) 
(http://)
(http://)
(http://)

 


i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2008, 04:51:51 PM »

snip

Now one thing that should be clear from this dynamic test is not only is the combined force stronger but is of a longer duration.

Ron


Hey I didn't mean to kill the new list with one post!!!

Comments, laughter, ridicule are all better than silence...

What do you think? Jack?, Nali? all?

Ron

Nali2001

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2008, 05:13:12 PM »
You murderer...

i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2008, 07:39:56 PM »
You murderer...

LOL, It just came to me that everyone is so taken with my skill and wonderful manner that they
have all quit this list and are just waiting for me to open a real list....

Hehehe, don't be alarmed by this banter folks, Nali and I very good friends from away back. He was the one that encouraged and explained Jack's valve to me. I am a retired machinist but Steven's designing and machining skills leave me in awe. His animation work has this "out of this world" touch as you may have seen. Whereas I take a more redneck approach and like to illustrate concepts with a bit of wood and some C clamps. To show the "folk" that you don't need a million dollar lab to get your feet wet.

OK, that was one reply...next....

Regards,

Ron

Nali2001

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 08:43:54 PM »
Indeed Ron here is the man and he has been in this field long before me and has a long list of quality replications. The test he he has done on this valve clearly show the gain one gets with these systems. The beauty of these systems is the simplicity and ease of understanding. Lots of different variations are possible. So I guess the next step for all is to piece together some motor or solid state device where the magnet adds a gain.

Regards,
Steven

LarryC

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2008, 10:33:59 PM »
@All,

Another simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor is by using a Shaded Pole Ac motor. It has the magnets before the rotor and can be connected into a multi valve unit. Downside, it is hard to find a large motor to use Jack size OU magnets.

The thin top piece of the motor is cut. The rotor is cut to a shorter arc instead of a circle. Magnets are placed on each side of the stator, a bar is added around to complete the outside flux path of the magnets. The inside flux path is thru the center of the electromagnet.

When the motor has the magnets it picks up the weight attached by a string to the side of the fan. When the motor doesn't have the magnets it cannot pick up the weight.

Regards, Larry



   

i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2008, 11:20:03 PM »
@All,

Another simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor is by using a Shaded Pole Ac motor. 
snip
When the motor has the magnets it picks up the weight attached by a string to the side of the fan. When the motor doesn't have the magnets it cannot pick up the weight.

Regards, Larry
 

Oh oh, thane's two bad boys on the new list, lol

Good to see you Larry, nice motor!, very well done, look forward to more...

Ron




broli

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2008, 12:45:57 AM »
Hey larry can you please make a paint drawing of your setup, it's a bit hard to understand from the pictures.

LarryC

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2008, 03:35:56 PM »
Hey larry can you please make a paint drawing of your setup, it's a bit hard to understand from the pictures.

Thanks for asking. I had made those pictures a while back and forgot to specify another cut on the stator.

The new pics should make it clearer.

Shaded pole motor before is from wiki.

Shaded pole motor cuts shows the cuts made to the stator and rotor.

Shaded pole motor with magnets shows magnets added to each side (opposite poles) with a metal spacer. The metal spacer reduces the flux strength to where it does not pull the rotor when no power is supplied.

Shaded pole motor with keeper shows metal bars have been attached to the back side of the magnets to form a flux path and stop the back side of the magnet flux from wraping into the stator.

Regards Larry

   

i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2008, 05:42:30 PM »
Thanks for asking. I had made those pictures a while back and forgot to specify another cut on the stator.
snip

Regards Larry
 

Excellent photography Larry, also. I see that they have been viewed 50 times so that must mean we
some interested people on the list.

It was the Genesis patent that really opened my eyes. Jack has this very basic shop (joke) and builds
these incredible motors, yet much is hidden and not explained too well. The Genesis patent supplies
a lot of the answers. So I have based my model more on the genesis and have found that the shorter
the flux path the better.

I had missed the fact that the list had been started a year and a half ago! So I do hope that this
revival will grow and that we continue to see Gyula, Tim and Wiz offering their expertize.

I did have great hopes for the solid state version. This was my first experiment with the lamination core... but sad to say it just showed only transformer action and the voltage was the same  with
the magnets in or out of the circuit.  But I did inadvertently make a Leedskalnin place holder!

Some of you have seen this but for the others....

Ron

(http://) 




LarryC

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2008, 05:43:37 PM »
Hey I didn't mean to kill the new list with one post!!!

Comments, laughter, ridicule are all better than silence...

What do you think? Jack?, Nali? all?

Ron


Who da top killer now, I_Ron!

@All,

Ron has done a great job of generating information from his Franken lab and appreciate his efforts.

Anybody wanting more detail data, probably cost millions, can be found in another hybrid magnet motor patent.
Figure 26 is an excellent graph comparing magnet force generated for magnet size and current levels. The chart is explained in the patent. It will answer a lot of questions for any builders.

The graph from patent 6,369,479 is attached below.

Regards, Larry

Lol, Ron. I just noticed we crossed post and both talking about the same motor.

i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2008, 07:44:14 PM »
snip
I did have great hopes for the solid state version. This was my first experiment with the lamination core... but sad to say it just showed only transformer action and the voltage was the same  with
the magnets in or out of the circuit.  snip

Ron


K, here is a picture to go with the above statement...

I made it a bit smaller to fit the page better too...

What kind of luck did you guys have? any results yet? what did I miss doing on mine?

Ron

Yes Larry, stop that... we don't want any cross posts on here, lol

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nwman

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2008, 10:30:38 PM »
i_ron,

Just for clarification, which is the primary and which is the secondary?

Tim

i_ron

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Re: Simple to make Hilden-Brand style motor
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2008, 11:16:56 PM »
i_ron,

Just for clarification, which is the primary and which is the secondary?

Tim

The secondary is the coil on the top (C core)  The top is a c core instead of a bar, the dimensions are
not a good fit but I thought it would be "close enough" as a mule. I was pulsing about at about 25 to
80? hertz 50% duty cycle and only at 12 volts. I have built megs and the bulgarian meg but always
there seems to be part of the equation missing....so open to suggestion...

Ron