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Author Topic: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator  (Read 20584 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2007, 11:13:43 PM »
Hi Vidar,
many thanks for your test.
Please supply your whole calculations, so it is getter clearer.
Many thanks.

P.S: These devices always rely on very specific materials,
so it realy depends heavy on the used magnets and toroids
and coils and magnet flux paths..
The slightes modification can have totally different output results,
so a quick setup with the wrong type materials will not result
in a success...

Regards, Stefan.

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2007, 09:01:07 AM »
Well, there is actually no spesific calculations others than the resistance of the wire, but the tests have being done this way:

Equipment:
Small toroid. Outer diameter:7mm, Inner diameter:50mm, hight:30mm
Two 5mmx5mmx50mm neodym magnets polarized across the length
Drill
Plastic insulated wire

The building:
The wire is used to make the coil which is a double layer @ 25mm length. Approx 30 turns.
The magnets are fasten directly on the steel chuck.

Now, the drill is running while I'm closing the distance between the toroid and the spinning magnets. If I get too close, the iron in the toroid will be saturated - which is not what I want.

A Fluke AC-volt meter is used to measure the coil while the magnets are spinning.

Regarding the calculations done when the coil was loaded, I measured first the voltage with a known resistive load. The calculation concluded that the flux density around the coil was reduced when the coil was loaded. As the voltage did drop much more than the wire resistance should promise, when the coil was loaded, the flux density must then increase on the other half of the toroid. This will in turn virtually make a higher impedance in the generator, as the fact is that less flux is running through the coil when it's loaded - hence the dramatic voltage drop. I will apply pictures when I get home, but here is a drawing of the setup.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 06:24:28 PM by Low-Q »

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2007, 07:25:29 PM »
Maybe
You should use a slotless motor of 2.5 hp or larger as the smaller cores have an inductance that is very high and the terminal voltage will drop as you load it.

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2007, 07:25:29 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2007, 12:15:21 PM »
Maybe a 2kW toroid should do... $150 - 200 I guess ::)

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2007, 05:18:18 PM »
Hey! don't tell me you don't know that all this f.e experimentation does come at a price. But if you are ghetto like me. You build the stuff you need. Takes longer I know but it's cheap. Here is how I made that core. It is build from a burned out 15orso kw motor. I cut the core in half, and removed the fingers from the laminates then re-insulated the laminates and put the thing back together. And viola a big ass ring core is born. And it did not cost more than like $10 - And I only used half the original core.

 

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2007, 05:18:18 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2007, 10:24:20 PM »
That was heavy... Could you maybe make a few turns of wire to that toroid, and spin a magnet inside to see what happens when the coil is loaded?

Br.

Vidar

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2007, 02:09:06 AM »


Regarding the calculations done when the coil was loaded, I measured first the voltage with a known resistive load. The calculation concluded that the flux density around the coil was reduced when the coil was loaded. As the voltage did drop much more than the wire resistance should promise, when the coil was loaded, the flux density must then increase on the other half of the toroid. This will in turn virtually make a higher impedance in the generator, as the fact is that less flux is running through the coil when it's loaded - hence the dramatic voltage drop. I will apply pictures when I get home, but here is a drawing of the setup.

Hi Low-Q,
nice setup,
but maybe the voltage dropped much more, cause you did not put the
magnet rotor directly into the toroid and thus too much
airgap was present !
This airgap can then press out the magnet flux into other directions,
so it would be good, if you could try again by putting the magnets directly into the
toroid hole and see what happens then, when you load the coil.
Many thanks in advance.

What material does your toroid have ?
Is it pure iron or laminated iron bands stacked ?
Does it have much eddy currents ?

Regards, Stefan.

P.S: Also it could be good to place an iron core between the2 rotating magnets,
so the flux is concentrated to the toroid side at each magnet end, so the flux
inside the 2 magnets does not have such a big airgap...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2007, 02:09:06 AM »
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Offline FredWalter

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2007, 04:11:20 PM »
Here is how I made that core. It is build from a burned out 15orso kw motor. I cut the core in half, and removed the fingers from the laminates then re-insulated the laminates and put the thing back together.

How did you remove the fingers from the laminates?

Offline tao

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2007, 04:53:45 PM »
Yes, you need to use one continuous magnet, and it need to be IN the hole area of the core, EXACTLY like it is pictured in my first post on this thread.




Regarding the calculations done when the coil was loaded, I measured first the voltage with a known resistive load. The calculation concluded that the flux density around the coil was reduced when the coil was loaded. As the voltage did drop much more than the wire resistance should promise, when the coil was loaded, the flux density must then increase on the other half of the toroid. This will in turn virtually make a higher impedance in the generator, as the fact is that less flux is running through the coil when it's loaded - hence the dramatic voltage drop. I will apply pictures when I get home, but here is a drawing of the setup.

Hi Low-Q,
nice setup,
but maybe the voltage dropped much more, cause you did not put the
magnet rotor directly into the toroid and thus too much
airgap was present !
This airgap can then press out the magnet flux into other directions,
so it would be good, if you could try again by putting the magnets directly into the
toroid hole and see what happens then, when you load the coil.
Many thanks in advance.

What material does your toroid have ?
Is it pure iron or laminated iron bands stacked ?
Does it have much eddy currents ?

Regards, Stefan.

P.S: Also it could be good to place an iron core between the2 rotating magnets,
so the flux is concentrated to the toroid side at each magnet end, so the flux
inside the 2 magnets does not have such a big airgap...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2007, 04:53:45 PM »
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Offline Nali2001

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2007, 06:53:36 PM »
Well I have a lathe and a milling machine so I can do anything with metal.

Here is how I made that core. It is build from a burned out 15orso kw motor. I cut the core in half, and removed the fingers from the laminates then re-insulated the laminates and put the thing back together.

How did you remove the fingers from the laminates?

Offline tru168

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2007, 03:43:48 PM »
Hi,

  The voltage drop from 0.7 volts to 0.3 volts when loaded, I think you will need to wind another similar coil at another side.
I think the magnetic filed in the toroid run tru the shortcut when the coil connect to load, let say, your winding is place at left site of the toroid, when you turn the magnet at its center, the N and S magnetic field will go tru right site of the toroid when you load the coil. By wind another set of similar windings at right site, and series the 2 coils together, you will find that it will not drop the output voltage when loaded.

 I tried the similar ideas few years back, I used small c core with 120 turns of SWG21 magnet wire on each site and I get 1.8V at 0.59 ampere. Yes, that is with load, and when unload, I get nearly 2 volts .  I also using a drill to spin the center magnet too.

(Sorry for my poor explaination, I seldom speak english! )

  Just my 2 cents! :)

Regards,
EW


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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2007, 03:43:48 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2007, 05:58:26 PM »
Hi EW,

Thanks for the very interesting info you gave, this is good news!

Can you remember if you checked the current draw of your drill : did it increase much when you loaded the output coils (1.8V/0.59A) ? Maybe you still have got the setup?

I think it would be good to look for the smallest power electric motor used in RC toys just enough to rotate the center magnet, this way keep the input power need at the minimum possible.

Thanks again,

Gyula

Offline tru168

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2007, 06:25:12 PM »
Hi Gyula,


  I didn't measure the current of the drill, as what you say, I should use smaller motor to test it out.
  I can feel that the RPM of the spin motor will be the same, with or without load.Thats means the load will not increase the current of the drill so much .
  I stop the experiment for quite a long time, thinking that it might not work.

   I still keep those c core ( rated 64 watts and spec sheet says saturation at 1.6T, M5 grade silicon steel) and some spare copper wires. The inductance of the 120 turns per side seems lower than I would like to continue the experiment, thats why I can only get less than 2 volts. Bigger cores and more turns will solved the problem.
 I will try again to build proper one and see how it goes.

 Normal RC model motor might not give you good efficiency, for example, Speed 540 type RC plane motor will never exceed 50% of efficiency. I will suggest to use RC type brushless motor which will have high torque and can directly drive the center magnet, and its efficientcy will reach 90++% its a bit expensive , and need to build a speed controller for the motor but I think it worth to invest a good motor for above mentioned project..Need to plot out the current draw VS spinner magnet weight and get the most efficient working point first,then only go for next step, that is, the output coil.
    The mentioned setup loves high RPM, the higher the RPM, the higher the efficiency. I will not allow the setup to run anything lower than 3500 RPM or efficiency will drop greatly. Again, just my humble opinion.......


Regards,
EW




 

 

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