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Author Topic: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2  (Read 12956 times)

Offline Low-Q

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The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« on: April 05, 2007, 06:07:17 PM »
Can someone please tell me where the sticky point is, and maybe how to reduce it?
The rotating parts are iron, and the parts inside the outer stator magnets are also iron.

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The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« on: April 05, 2007, 06:07:17 PM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2007, 02:00:22 AM »
Can someone please tell me where the sticky point is, and maybe how to reduce it?
The rotating parts are iron, and the parts inside the outer stator magnets are also iron.


Hi,
very nice motor !

Can you please post the FEMM files in each position , so I can have a look at the calculated torque
output from the rotor ?

You can calculate the torque with FEMM over the whole cycle and then see, if there are
more positive torque components or if all torque components will
sum up to zero...
But this looks like there is always a positive torque or
at least most of the time !
That?s very good !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2007, 12:12:49 PM »
Can someone please tell me where the sticky point is, and maybe how to reduce it?
The rotating parts are iron, and the parts inside the outer stator magnets are also iron.


Hi,
very nice motor !

Can you please post the FEMM files in each position , so I can have a look at the calculated torque
output from the rotor ?

You can calculate the torque with FEMM over the whole cycle and then see, if there are
more positive torque components or if all torque components will
sum up to zero...
But this looks like there is always a positive torque or
at least most of the time !
That?s very good !

Regards, Stefan.

I haven't stored all positions, but I have used -10 degrees for each position. All lines in the rotating part is "curve". and the center position is 0, 0.

Idon't know how to measure torque.

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2007, 12:12:49 PM »
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Offline Gregory

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 06:33:39 PM »
Hi Vidar,

Nice animation!

I can't use femm quite well, but if i can recall correctly, you can measure torque by clicking on parts / blocks of your simulation, then click on the integrate button and choose torque from the list.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 12:33:08 AM »
Here is 18 saved FEM-files, -10 degree for each file. I cannot find the integrate button (How does it look like?), not in the file menu...

Br.

Vidar

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 12:33:08 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2007, 01:24:14 AM »
Okay, here is attached to this message the first torque measurement.
YOu must just draw an additional circle around the object inside a smaller
triangled airgap and close the circle with the red circle
drawing tool in the output Blux density diagram and then click the
the Line integral symbol and click Torque from Stress tensor.

This gives about 1.2 NewtonMeter torque at the zero degrees rotation setting.

I will now see, what it is for each single rotor.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline bitRAKE

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 01:34:35 AM »
Forgive my ignorance, but would the motor just stop about the position in the below image?

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 01:34:35 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 09:13:45 AM »
Okay, here is attached to this message the first torque measurement.
YOu must just draw an additional circle around the object inside a smaller
triangled airgap and close the circle with the red circle
drawing tool in the output Blux density diagram and then click the
the Line integral symbol and click Torque from Stress tensor.

This gives about 1.2 NewtonMeter torque at the zero degrees rotation setting.

I will now see, what it is for each single rotor.

Regards, Stefan.
Thanks for your help!

I look forward to se the final result, even if it is negative :)

BTW: You must probably exclude the fixed center magnet in your measurements to get a correct torque value (?)

Br.

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 09:59:52 AM »
I finally made it, Stefan. I excluded the inner permanent magnet, and got -5,5Nm torque instead of -1,2Nm.

I also closed the iron ring and got -0,04Nm torque...I believe this is average torque in one revolution.

I'll try anoter angles on the inner permanent magnet to se if it alters the torque.

Br.

Vidar

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 09:59:52 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2007, 03:27:15 PM »
Hi Vidar,
yes, the inner circle magnet must be excluded.
I saw, that it gives greatly different results, if you include it !
I must redraw all your drawings first to make
more space for another line integral line around the moving
rotors and also make the airgap triangles mesh more dense at this
point as this lowers the errors.

Also it helps in faster computing to define the pure iron material
as Linear and not Nonlinear, which accelerates the computation a lot
if you have a finer mesh.
The introduced error is not so big with this easier calculations.

Sorry, I am pretty busy with other things right now and I will
try to get to it during this week.
Stay tuned.

You have to make a graph of all the torque values versus rotor
angles and see, if the positive values over a 360 degree cycles are
more than then negative torque values over this cycle.
If it does not add up to ZERO, then we have a positive result
and the motor will selfrun, if the simulation is not wrong.

If I only had time to learn this LUA Script language, all would be much easier..

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2007, 03:32:19 PM »
Forgive my ignorance, but would the motor just stop about the position in the below image?

If you would attach a flywheel to the rotor axis these angles, where there is
not much positive torque could be overcome, if the integral over the torque
over a complete 360 degrees cycle is still positive !
Then we would get a selfrunning motor.

If the integral of the torque over the complete cycle adds up to zero, then it would not work.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2007, 03:32:19 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2007, 04:11:07 PM »
I have done some modifications to the motor by using three iron poles instead of two. I have also added a steel can to the outer magnets. In addition, there is now fully magnet on the outer magnets - no iron parts attached to them. See the picture for details.
I have now measured an average of 9 Nm in 360degrees. All measurements had a torque in the same direction (?!).

So I was thinking: Isn't it more correct to use the "Area" instead of "Contur", tool and mark the rotating parts alone to measure torque in the rotating iron parts - as all the magnets are fixed as stators?
If I do that, the torque during 360 degrees are not so promising...

Br.

Vidar

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2007, 04:23:04 PM »
Hi Vidar,
yes the 3 single rotors must be measured alone and added up.

I think the contur line will give the same as the Area tool.
it only depends on the meshes that are next to the rotors inside the airgap,
there are ocurring the forces.
So put a "trapez-circle" line inside the airgap around each rotor and then measure the torque
from stress tensor for each rotor and add this up for each rotor angle.
If you know how to use LUA scripts, you could do this in 1 degrees rotor angle intervals
and then get every sum of the rotor torques and put in into Excel or Calc
spreadsheet from OpenOffice and plot a torque versus rotor angle graph.
Then are there more positive rotor torques more than negative rotor torques
values ?
Add up their areas and you can see, if it adds up to zero or
to a positive or negative value.
If it is zero then it will not work, if it is unequal to zero, then the motor will run
either clockwise or counterclockwise.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Jdo300

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 05:04:10 PM »
Hi Vidar,

I have used FEMME extensively and have written script files that will auto-rotate and take the torque measurements. If you attach that latest FEMME file, I'll be happy to run the simulation for you and generate a torque plot.

God Bless,
Jason O

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The Vidar-magnet motor MK2
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 05:42:59 PM »
yes, Jason,
if you could please do this, this would be great,
as I don?t have time in this moment to play with it and
I would need to do it all manually, cause I don?t know LUA script language yet.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

 

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