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Author Topic: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator  (Read 21219 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2007, 12:50:24 PM »
The ONLY way that the permeability of the iron will decrease is IF the coil is outputing energy!

So, you can't have one without the other.

The only way the flux from the magnet will move is IF there is energy being output on the coil. A changed permeability is a direct result of output current in the coil, period, there is no other way that the flux is going to distort like that.

So, there is either energy being output on the coil OR the flux in the toroid IS NOT distorting, period...


Wouldn't this generator provide more current and less voltage when loaded? The permeability of the iron will decrease if the coil is loaded, the magnetic field will follow the part of the toroid with no coil when the coil is sort cut, hence the missing back torque. At the same time no energy is generated in the coil. Hmmm... I think we again are walking on a dead end (or blind alley if you like).

Vidar

Lets assume there is a voltage output - AC I guess when the magnet rotates. This voltage should be possible to use to something. If so, current will flow through the coil wire. When current flows through the coil wire, it will induce an opposite magnetic field in the iron core in the area where the coil is placed. This magnetic field will force the magnetic field from the magnet to take another path - the second and only alternative: The other side of the toroid where there is no coil. And to alter the magnetic path, as long ther is a path to use, does not require energy - hence no back torque. (I'm thinking loud now - I'm not an expert in this)

Therefor Lenz law is then still topical, but it all happens in a manner that does not influence the torque in the rotating magnet. Lenz law will still have an effect on the output, and limit the output when the coil is loaded.

I can read that there is for example 10amps used to run the motor (To rotate the magnet), and 20 amps can be measured from the generator. At which voltage is these currents measured?
The question is then; How many watts do you put in, and how many watts do you get out, as watt is a product of volt and amp?re.

Br.

Vidar

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Offline tao

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2007, 03:09:08 PM »
Well, Steven's patent states a 12V@0.8Amp input and a 6V@40Amp output.......
That is 9.6Watts in, 240Watts out....

His other device was 140Watts in 1200Watts out, as put forth by Stefan Hartmann.

So, we either believe or not, either way, it needs to be built for true realization...

Everything points to the fact that the Zen Gen DOES work... I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 04:15:25 PM »
Well, Steven's patent states a 12V@0.8Amp input and a 6V@40Amp output.......
That is 9.6Watts in, 240Watts out....

His other device was 140Watts in 1200Watts out, as put forth by Stefan Hartmann.

So, we either believe or not, either way, it needs to be built for true realization...

Everything points to the fact that the Zen Gen DOES work... I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise.

OK, I missed that information, sorry.

Next question:

Is the output 1200 watts peak, continous or average?

I have the tools to build a test generator, and this weekend my wife is going to visit my parents-in-law - her parents so to speak. And I'm left alone, with plenty of time :) I can't say for sure that I'll be finished this weekend. We'll see.

Br.

Vidar

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 04:15:25 PM »
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Offline Nali2001

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2007, 05:59:08 PM »
don't forget, for that 240 watts out he used a like 12kw core. The 'amount' of core material is important. Like posted before from Steven he recommends using core's from 2.5hp motor...

You should use a slotless motor of 2.5 hp or larger as the smaller cores have an inductance that is very high and the terminal voltage will drop as you load it.

This IS important and I know most people think it's not.
I have seen like 3 replication of these systems but their put out nearly nothing. Because their build far too small.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 06:42:35 PM by Nali2001 »

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2007, 07:13:08 PM »
although not quite a 12kw core, this one is a good starting size probably.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2007, 07:13:08 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2007, 07:23:35 PM »
don't forget, for that 240 watts out he used a like 12kw core. The 'amount' of core material is important. Like posted before from Steven he recommends using core's from 2.5hp motor...

You should use a slotless motor of 2.5 hp or larger as the smaller cores have an inductance that is very high and the terminal voltage will drop as you load it.

This IS important and I know most people think it's not.
I have seen like 3 replication of these systems but their put out nearly nothing. Because their build far too small.
My experience shows that the inductance increase as the iron mass increase, not the opposite.

Vidar

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2007, 06:01:24 AM »
don't forget, for that 240 watts out he used a like 12kw core. The 'amount' of core material is important. Like posted before from Steven he recommends using core's from 2.5hp motor...

You should use a slotless motor of 2.5 hp or larger as the smaller cores have an inductance that is very high and the terminal voltage will drop as you load it.

This IS important and I know most people think it's not.
I have seen like 3 replication of these systems but their put out nearly nothing. Because their build far too small.
My experience shows that the inductance increase as the iron mass increase, not the opposite.

Vidar

Hi Folks,

You should use a slotless motor of 2.5 hp or larger as the smaller cores have an inductance that is very high and the terminal voltage will drop as you load it.

I think Sullivan meant that slotless motors of under 2.5 HP have smaller core cross sections, hence they need more number of turns (this gives the needed inductance for the smaller cores) and the copper loss (DC resistance) this way also increases, hence the output (terminal) voltage tends to drop in a higher extent (when you try to use them in his patent's setup)  when loaded than motors with bigger cores (i.e. over 2-3 HP).

So you are both correct: using cores of higher cross section will involve higher self inductance with a certain number of turns and this is needed for inducing more voltage while keeping the copper loss at a reasonable level. Also, saturation levels usually are  more favorable towards higher cross sectional cores, so magnet strength can be increased.  So the bigger core size you have, the better.

Regards
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2007, 06:01:24 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2007, 08:32:02 AM »
OK,
 I will try to make a generator with a much smaller toroid, just to see the principle. It should be possible as a smaller generator, in spite of relatively greater loss, should be able to produce energy.
Hopefully the generator output will be in proportion to the energy requirements of the smaller DC-motor which drives the rotating magnet.

Br.

Vidar

Offline eavogels

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2007, 12:11:00 PM »
Hi.
Now this is perhaps a stupid question but is the toroid supposed to be a ring magnet?
Thanks.
Eric.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2007, 12:11:00 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2007, 01:29:27 PM »
Hi.
Now this is perhaps a stupid question but is the toroid supposed to be a ring magnet?
Thanks.
Eric.
The toroid is a ring of laminated unmagnitized iron plates, as in a regular toroid transformer, but without all the wire. A short coil i winded on just a small part of the toroid. This coil are not intended to be used as an electro magnet, or ring magnet.
The toroid is not a magnet itself, but a rotating magnet inside (Where N and S is pointing in each oposite direction) is spinning to generate electricity in the coil - a generator which we believe voilates Lenz law when loaded. Some of us desagree.

Br.

Vidar

Offline eavogels

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2007, 02:33:16 PM »
Thanks Vidar.
I found this device interesting since it was rather easy to test. Just collecting parts now. I have loads of ring magnets but I have more problems finding a big enough laminated iron ring.
Regards,
Eric.

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2007, 02:33:16 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2007, 02:46:46 PM »
I believe you probably can use a ring magnet. As the magnetic field is static, an 90o on the induced field from the spinning permanent magnet, I believe you can get the same or similar effect. I really don't know, but it's worth a try. You could also demagnetize the ring magnet as well, so you don't have to worry about over saturation of the ferrite material in these magnets.

Br.

Vidar

Offline eavogels

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2007, 09:27:53 PM »
Half an hour in the oven at max. temperature will kill the magnet and just leaves a ferro ring.
I'll try, thanks.

Eric.

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2007, 04:02:42 PM »
I have always felt that a magnetic motor based based on
de-magnetising and re-magnetising in the opposite
polarity "on  the fly" might provide OU. It would be a slow
running machine.

Presumably the electrical cost of doing this would rule it out.
Paul.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Zen Generator - A No Back Torque Electromagnetic Generator
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2007, 10:08:22 PM »
Now, I have done some simple tests just to see the potential in a Zen-generator. I winded approx 30 turns on a small toroid, and used my drill to run the magnet. Unloaded I achieved 0.7 Volt. Not much, but the rpm was not high and the amount or turns in the winding are not high.
The resistance in the winding is approx 0.2 Ohm, capable of providing half of the voltage measured when loading the winding with 0.2 ohm. In other words approx 0.61 Watt at max load.
Well I loaded the winding with 3.3 Ohms. Guess what! The voltage did drop from 0.7 Volt to 0.3 Volt. If I do some simple calculations, in respect to the resistance of the winding, the total impedance of the generator increased from 0.2 Ohm to approx 4 Ohm - maybe due to "flux escaping" in the toroid when the winding was loaded.
Approx 0.7 Volt in 3.3 Ohms, is approx 0.15 Watt. This "flux escaping" reduced the energy potential from 0.15 Watt, down to 0.022 Watt. A energy loss of 85% with an easy load.

What does this mean?
A Zen-generator will probably never be able to run itself.
A Zen-generator does not voilate Lenz law, as the back torque is probably internal in the toroid itself.

PS! All values are average effective values. Peak values may be very different.

Br.

Vidar

 

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