Author Topic: Generating 100% noiseless DC voltage and current (Read 24792 times)

Low-Q · « **on:** March 14, 2007, 01:48:33 AM »

I have discovered a way to improve/modify an "Eddy Current generator" in order to make useful and higher DC voltage and lower DC current. My test device is a regular toroid transformer, but with only one coil. An equal magnetic pole is directed into the toroid from above and underneath. When rotating the magnets, a constant flow of electrons will go through the windings in only one direction and generate voltage. There is however no current flowing unless the coil is connected to a load.
Think of never concern about efficiency loss due to 50/60Hz voltage traveling thousands of miles across the country. DC supply must be the right way to export energy?

I have a simple prototype, ultra beta test model;D: One neodym magnet, and a toroid coil.

Just by slowly striking the toroid across the windings it generate constant DC voltage, where polarity is depending on direction. 0,5V with very low velocity of the single magnet. Imagine 1000rpm with several magnets!

I have an idea of making a large non conductive ferrite ring, 10 inch in outer diameter, 2 inch inner diameter, and 1/4 inch thick, and wind a coil on this. Equal poles from two disc magnets will face the ferrite ring from above and underneath. Normally the magnets will repel, but when they are close enough to the ferrite ring, both magnets will be attracted to the ferrite disc making a magnetic field crossing the coil, where the magnetic loop will end up at the ferrite disc outer edge and back to the opposite pole of each magnet. When the magnets start rotating, a DC voltage will be measured. Depending on the load, a certain amount of DC current will flow through the coil.

Any ideas of improving, this to increase efficiency?

PS! I have tried to reverse the process by adding DC current to the coil, and hopefully make the magnets to move in one direction around the toroid, but that does not work - for some reason. In other words the generator, can only be a generator, and is not reversible (

)

Br.

Vidar

gyulasun · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2007, 10:28:01 AM »

Hi,

Did you mean your setup like this? see drawing attached.

Quote

Think of never concern about efficiency loss due to 50/60Hz voltage traveling thousands of miles across the country. DC supply must be the right way to export energy?

I do not understand this. In case of DC voltage too, Ohms Law also applies when wire resistance is involved any time current starts flowing in the wire.

Quote

PS! I have tried to reverse the process by adding DC current to the coil, and hopefully make the magnets to move in one direction around the toroid, but that does not work - for some reason. In other words the generator, can only be a generator, and is not reversible ()

This is because of the toroidal shape, the magnetic poles close inside the ring and do not spray out too much to the outside of the toroid. Test it with a magnetic compass, it is much more sensitive than your heavy magnets.

Gyula

Low-Q · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2007, 03:38:11 PM »

Quote from: gyulasun on March 14, 2007, 10:28:01 AM

Hi,

Did you mean your setup like this? see drawing attached.

Quote
Think of never concern about efficiency loss due to 50/60Hz voltage traveling thousands of miles across the country. DC supply must be the right way to export energy?

I do not understand this. In case of DC voltage too, Ohms Law also applies when wire resistance is involved any time current starts flowing in the wire.

Quote
PS! I have tried to reverse the process by adding DC current to the coil, and hopefully make the magnets to move in one direction around the toroid, but that does not work - for some reason. In other words the generator, can only be a generator, and is not reversible ()

This is because of the toroidal shape, the magnetic poles close inside the ring and do not spray out too much to the outside of the toroid. Test it with a magnetic compass, it is much more sensitive than your heavy magnets.

Gyula

Yes, it's the same as you show on your picture.

A long wire, maybe 100 kilometers long, have quite much inductance. 50/60Hz on such wire will increase the cables impedance. A DC current will not increase the impedance of the cable. The resistance will however always be an issue on DC as well as AC.

What do you mean by testing it with a compass?

I know however that the magnetic fields are going into the toroid because of the iron core.

Br.

Vidar

gyulasun · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2007, 04:34:47 PM »

Hi Vidar,

Quote

A long wire, maybe 100 kilometers long, have quite much inductance. 50/60Hz on such wire will increase the cables impedance. A DC current will not increase the impedance of the cable. The resistance will however always be an issue on DC as well as AC.

Well, this is ok, but in case of AC the reason the AC voltage is transformed up to several hundred kV range is just to reduce the current needed to transfer a certain power, hence the wire losses get reduced. I am not a High Voltage guru but surely those specialists designing those HV transformer/transmission systems are well aware of this. The long wires' impedance may be designed into the primaries and secondaries of the power transformers or/and can be partly compensated for.

Quote

What do you mean by testing it with a compass?

Simply place a normal compass near enough to your toroid and switch on the current into the coil: the compass probably will react by turning slightly away or towards the body of the toroid core. You may want to place the compass at different positions alongside/around the toroid core (taking into consideration the compass natural attraction to the core too). It is possible you can only detect any compass movement only very close to the core.

Gyula

PS: I wonder which plane do you think to rotate the magnets:

1) in a plane parallel to the sides of the toroid core (this means the magnets always remain in a equal distance from the sides of the core and always the same poles are facing the core)

2) in a plane perpendicular to the plane of the toroid (this means the poles approach and leave the sides of the core and there is the possibility for alternate the poles during the rotation)

Liberty · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2007, 05:39:10 PM »

Thinking out loud here... It looks like to me that the center magnet would cause a secondary magnet to form in a magnetite toroid core. This "inner toroid magnet" flux would constantly change position with the spinning magnet's position. It looks like it might cause a DC voltage output to be induced in the coil.

More rings around the spinning magnet might be added to increase output.

Spin the permanent magnet with a small DC motor.

gyulasun · « **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2007, 06:02:18 PM »

Hi Don,

I think what you have shown one of the best setups I have seen with toroidal core + some rotating magnets setups, thank you.
No sticky point and input power is needed 'only' to rotate the mass of the magnet (friction and air resistance).

The only thing I don't get is you mention DC voltage output: why?

there is a continuously changing flux during a 360 degree full revolution and then it all starts over again, smells like a sinusoidal output to me.

Gyula

Liberty · « **Reply #6 on:** March 14, 2007, 06:44:35 PM »

Hi Gylua,

I was thinking that the output might look like a half sine wave that repeats. I picture it like a cylindrical magnet constantly spinning in the same direction on the inside of the copper coil. This should produce a DC voltage I think?...(same direction induction) with one revolution. The induction might be interrupted when the magnet passes the open point in the coil. Then the pulse should increase again. So I would guess that the pulse would look like a long pulse in one direction that would repeat. I'm guessing that it might look like a half of a sine wave pulse in the same direction...pulsed DC, but pretty constant? That is the picture I had in my mind about how the output might look. How were you picturing it?

gyulasun · « **Reply #7 on:** March 14, 2007, 08:18:13 PM »

Hi Don,

I imagine it the same like you with the cylinder shape magnet inside of the toroidal core/coil but I consider a full sine wave is created.

Let's start the rotation with the cylinder magnet North pole facing 12 o'clock and its South pole facing 6 o'clock, ok? Suppose the core is fully filled with the coilwire, the output wires are at say 11:59 and 12:00 positions, ok?
Now let's start rotation and let's rotate only 180 degree first: North pole will be at 6 and South pole will be at 12 o'clock. Half of the coil (from 12 to 6) has been swept by the North, the other half (from 6 to 12) has been swept by the South pole, both coil parts must have received maximum fluxchange at 3 and 9 o'clock positions (because at the start the magnet's flux at 9 and 3 o'clock positions were at the minimum due to the Bloch wall).
Up till now the induced voltage must be of increasing amplitude, starting from zero value, reaches a maximum at 3 and 9 positions and then start decreasing again towards zero as the 180 degree position arrives.
Continuing rotation beyond 180 degree, this is what I think at the moment as the induced voltage will increase again but in the opposite direction because now the South pole moves where the North has been before and I think when a change in the poles happens it changes induced voltage polarity. Maybe I am mistaken, I am not a 100% sure here

I understand your half sine waves but would accept them in case the magnet would move like a 180 degree pendulum only back and force inside the core, ok?
Tests would be needed for making sure...

Thanks
Gyula

Low-Q · « **Reply #8 on:** March 14, 2007, 08:47:34 PM »

Quote from: Liberty on March 14, 2007, 05:39:10 PM

Thinking out loud here... It looks like to me that the center magnet would cause a secondary magnet to form in a magnetite toroid core. This "inner toroid magnet" flux would constantly change position with the spinning magnet's position. It looks like it might cause a DC voltage output to be induced in the coil.

More rings around the spinning magnet might be added to increase output.

Spin the permanent magnet with a small DC motor.

In your picture it looks like both magnet poles are spinning in the same direction inside the toroid. This will induce two opposite charges, and ends in zero. With "my" design (I want to be careful saying this is my design - it might be several equal designs already out there), the spinning magnet use only one pole facing the magnet. The other pole might be useful for a second toroid. The toroids must also be more flat to reduce the nonworking part outside and inside the toroid. As far as I know, only the part of the winding going inwards to the middle is the working part - at least this part generates more output than any other parts of the toroid I have tested.

EDIT: This generator does not, for some reasons, work as a motor. Punning a DC current into the windings, the magnets will not start to spin. Does this maybe mean that the motor can be fed by the induced charge from the toroid, without the toroid working as a motor driven by the induced charge from the motor? Will this be the correct approach to make a self sustaining motor/generator?
I ask everyone here as well

Br.

Vidar

Low-Q · « **Reply #9 on:** March 14, 2007, 08:55:28 PM »

Quote from: Liberty on March 14, 2007, 06:44:35 PM

Hi Gylua,

I was thinking that the output might look like a half sine wave that repeats. I picture it like a cylindrical magnet constantly spinning in the same direction on the inside of the copper coil. This should produce a DC voltage I think?...(same direction induction) with one revolution. The induction might be interrupted when the magnet passes the open point in the coil. Then the pulse should increase again. So I would guess that the pulse would look like a long pulse in one direction that would repeat. I'm guessing that it might look like a half of a sine wave pulse in the same direction...pulsed DC, but pretty constant? That is the picture I had in my mind about how the output might look. How were you picturing it?

The output will be constant DC if the windings is many enough to get several windings inside the flux area of the spinning magnet. If the windings are few, and the magnet is short, you'll get DC pulses - probably with a small opposite charge before and after the main pulse as some of the magnetic lines probably goes the opposite way. Most of the magnetic flux is going in one direction, to the iron core, hence the DC output.

Br.

Vidar

Liberty · « **Reply #10 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:07:09 PM »

Thinking out loud again...
With the picture that I posted, it may be that magnetic flux flowing in both directions will cancel out current flow in the coil with flux flowing through both halves of the toroid at the same time in opposite directions, while the center magnet spins? I suspect it might just result in no power output from the coil or very little output.

Probably the way to avoid current flow conflict within the coil would be to use the original setup that Low-Q suggested by using two magnets in attract (passing flux from one magnet through one side of the toroid/coil to the other magnet on the other side of the toroid). The magnetic flux would always pass through the coil in the same direction causing current to flow in one direction only for a DC output. Multiple magnets could be mounted on each side of the coil and spun on a common rotor by a motor. There might be some opposing field to the rotating magnets on each side of the coil/toroid, similar to the operation of a speaker coil that passes through a magnetic field. But it looks like most of the opposing magnetic field that is generated (when power is pulled from the coil) would flow in the core of the toroid and cancel out within the toroid core itself. If the magnetic field that was created by pulling power out of the coil cancelled out in the other side of the toroid core for the most part, (being the easiest flux path); it may not create as much of an opposing force to the field magnet as it passes by? This might possibly be a type of reduced drag generator?

Low-Q · « **Reply #11 on:** March 14, 2007, 11:37:07 PM »

Quote from: Liberty on March 14, 2007, 09:07:09 PM

Thinking out loud again...
With the picture that I posted, it may be that magnetic flux flowing in both directions will cancel out current flow in the coil with flux flowing through both halves of the toroid at the same time in opposite directions, while the center magnet spins? I suspect it might just result in no power output from the coil or very little output.

Probably the way to avoid current flow conflict within the coil would be to use the original setup that Low-Q suggested by using two magnets in attract (passing flux from one magnet through one side of the toroid/coil to the other magnet on the other side of the toroid). The magnetic flux would always pass through the coil in the same direction causing current to flow in one direction only for a DC output. Multiple magnets could be mounted on each side of the coil and spun on a common rotor by a motor. There might be some opposing field to the rotating magnets on each side of the coil/toroid, similar to the operation of a speaker coil that passes through a magnetic field. But it looks like most of the opposing magnetic field that is generated (when power is pulled from the coil) would flow in the core of the toroid and cancel out within the toroid core itself. If the magnetic field that was created by pulling power out of the coil cancelled out in the other side of the toroid core for the most part, (being the easiest flux path); it may not create as much of an opposing force to the field magnet as it passes by? This might possibly be a type of reduced drag generator?

In bold:
The two magnets have both either south or north pole facing the toroid from both sides. In a loudspeaker, the opposite pole is in the middle of the voice coil where the pole piece are (The iron core inside a toroid transformer), and the other pole is surrounding the voice coil. The same principle must be used on a toroid generator, but the opposite pole must be created in the iron by the pole facing the toroid, and not by an opposite pole on the other side of the toroid.

Br.

Vidar

tao · « **Reply #12 on:** March 15, 2007, 01:05:37 AM »

I am willing to bet that your output looks very similar to this(the scopeshot on the right) and that it repeats:

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif)
From http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm

It seems that either you and JLN are RIGHT, or FEMM is wrong, OR all are right!

I did tests based on your design in FEMM and when I induce current in the coils, the magnets are opposed and pushed, although VERY little. I did A LOT of tests and wrote down all the X and Y force values that the magnets were feeling then I introduce current in the coils. This means that if you put in a very large current into your toroid, the magnets should move a little bit at least.

BUT, the interesting question we need to ask ourselves is: Due to the oppositional setup of the rotor magnets, and thier interaction with the toroid, is the ratio of back torque on the rotor magnets to the ratio of power output in the toroid coil the SAME or DIFFERENT than normal types of generators that DON'T have their rotor magnets orthogonal to the power output coil?

?!?!?!?!?!?

Here is a sample shot from one of my sims in FEMM:

Liberty · « **Reply #13 on:** March 15, 2007, 02:45:57 AM »

Hi Tao,

That is the same scope shot picture that I thought of with this device. Would you think if another magnet were added on one side of the original magnets, but spaced away a little, would aid in the flux return flow path through the windings? (Basically a horseshoe arrangement). Would FEMM show the optimum spacing for placement of a "return flux magnet"? Or would it do any good to add a return flux path concentrator in your opinion?

I would hope that the orthagonal toroid coil might tend to direct or concentrate the magnetic field that is created when power flows from the coil, in the direction of the toroid core, rather than directly at the source field magnet, due to the direction of the windings (similar to a solenoid winding) and the proximity of the core. Nice pictures Tao and excellent question that really does need to be answered yet.

Hi Vidar,

After more study, I agree with you and your explaination because you are correct, that using directly opposite poles (N-S) might fight current flow in the coil because the coil is approaching the magnetic field from the same direction at the same time (unlike a rotating motor coil). Therefore, as you stated, you need to use one pole outside of the coil in that spot. But the FEMM pictures from Tao may possibly suggest that using a horseshoe magnet arrangement might improve flux flow return path. I suppose polarity and direction of rotation would also be important for placement of return flux magnets (if they would work).
Interesting topic that you brought up Vidar. It's been fun.

Low-Q · « **Reply #14 on:** March 15, 2007, 11:09:29 AM »

Quote from: tao on March 15, 2007, 01:05:37 AM

I am willing to bet that your output looks very similar to this(the scopeshot on the right) and that it repeats:

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif)
From http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm

It seems that either you and JLN are RIGHT, or FEMM is wrong, OR all are right!

I did tests based on your design in FEMM and when I induce current in the coils, the magnets are opposed and pushed, although VERY little. I did A LOT of tests and wrote down all the X and Y force values that the magnets were feeling then I introduce current in the coils. This means that if you put in a very large current into your toroid, the magnets should move a little bit at least.

BUT, the interesting question we need to ask ourselves is: Due to the oppositional setup of the rotor magnets, and thier interaction with the toroid, is the ratio of back torque on the rotor magnets to the ratio of power output in the toroid coil the SAME or DIFFERENT than normal types of generators that DON'T have their rotor magnets orthogonal to the power output coil??!?!?!?!?!?

Here is a sample shot from one of my sims in FEMM:

For the given coils shown in the first picture, the scope shots are correct. However a toroid coil has an "infinite" length with no start or end, hence the output will be constant, and not pulsed.

Regarding your question, I have no simple answer. I have just discovered that moving a magnet in circle along the toroids circumference measures a constant DC output. If I reverse the direction, an opposite charge is measured.
If I flip the magnet so both poles are going parallel with the toroid, and then move it in the same way as described earlier, no output is measured.

I have also discovered that the magnet will just flip 90^o when current flows through the windings.

I used a 2300mA N-Mh cell on the toroid coil with 0,5ohm resistance - 390 turns with 1,4mm wire. The current is approx 2A.

Br.

Vidar

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Author Topic: Generating 100% noiseless DC voltage and current (Read 24792 times)

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