Author Topic: Possible permanent magnet motor working in attraction mode (Read 18017 times)

Nali2001 · « **on:** March 08, 2007, 02:22:53 PM »

Hi all, I need you all to think on this one here for me. Here is an interesting permanent magnet motor working in attraction mode.
What do you think? This is the most basic layout I guess. Also see the attached video.

Workable?

Thanks!
Steven

TheOne · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2007, 02:43:50 PM »

I think you will get a perfect balance which mean no rotation.

mikestocks2006 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2007, 03:28:05 PM »

Hi Nali2001
Nice anims, what program(s) are you using to create them?

Thanks.

idnick · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2007, 04:06:42 PM »

Quote from: TheOne on March 08, 2007, 02:43:50 PM

I think you will get a perfect balance which mean no rotation.

That is exactly what I see. Perfect balance. You can try it tho.

Dave

Nali2001 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2007, 04:39:49 PM »

Program is 3d studio max 9.

The retaining arms are not used for getting motive foce/rotation. The magnets on each rotor want too attract to each other but since they ofcourse are secured to the rotor they can only force the rotors to rotate and so alow the magnets to come closer together. But ofcouse when the ideal situation ('magnets atracting at the closest distance') is reached for the magnets, they will not seperate again easily... this is where the flux retainer comes in. Its is a closed flux path and will allow for each magnet an (maybe even more) 'attractive' path - of least resistance'. But then after almost a full rotation on the flux retainer, one needs to release the magnet from the 'flux retainers ideal closed flux loop'. But like I discribed, that is mostly solved by the effect that 'of each magnet leaving the retainer, there is one entering.' And so that is kind of ballanced. BUT that whole flux retaining thing has nothing to do with creating the rotation. Like I said the rotation is only coused due to the 'attractiveness' between each rotor's magnet to the other rotors magnet

Well I hope you kind of understand now. It's hard to explain in words.
But any more questions are more than welcome!

Steven

idnick · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2007, 04:47:03 PM »

Thanks for the clearer explaination and the anamation program info.

Dave

tsakou · « **Reply #6 on:** March 08, 2007, 06:48:06 PM »

Quote from: Nali2001 on March 08, 2007, 02:22:53 PM

Hi all, I need you all to think on this one here for me. Here is an interesting permanent magnet motor working in attraction mode.
What do you think? This is the most basic layout I guess. Also see the attached video.

Workable?

Thanks!
Steven

I think that it will not work, because the magnets inside the shield will be attracted to it. There are many more magnets attracted to the shield, than the ones that are attracted for the motion. So the force stopping must be great.

Regards,

Kostas

Nali2001 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2007, 07:14:23 PM »

The magnets keep the same distance in regard to the retainer plate all the time so except for losses like eddy currents there will be no resistance coused by the retainer plate.

dutchy1966 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2007, 08:49:18 PM »

Hi,

This can be perfectly modelled in FEMM. You will be able to see the forces involved and the torque on the rotors.....
But my opinion is that the most attracted magnets will not go behind the retaining plates..... but might be worth a try....

Robert

hartiberlin · « **Reply #9 on:** March 08, 2007, 09:15:06 PM »

Hi Steven,
very nice animation and idea.

I think that this concept can have some success,
if you make the metall from ferrite or other nonconducting
core, so you don?t have any eddy current losses and
2. you need to "tune" the point, where the magnets are closest
together.
There you probably need a bigger plate diameter, so the flux
is going more into the plate and can not halt the rotation of the discs.

Also the discs need to be geared up, so they can only move
together in sync.

Isn?t there any magnetic forces "plugin" for 3D Studio,
so you could test inside the animation, if this works ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

edo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2007, 10:00:18 PM »

Hi Nali2001, and others:

I say the following with the greatest of respect for you and the other wonderful people researching and exploring these areas.

Interesting design. Attraction will occur in part of the Zone of Attraction due to the positive gradient of the magnetic field (potential). There, the direction will be towards decreasing separation due to the gradient of the attraction. This could cause net rotations as shown.

Radial attraction is assumed to be constant within the flux retaining plates (shields) except for the open area -- this should cause a net force sideways (along with a twist) on the central bearings -- yielding no net acceleration or deceleration from the plates' interaction.

However, please consider the effect of the negative gradient of attraction where and as the magnets emerge from the flux retaining shields. Since I do not see a regauging possibility, I wonder how the net drag from the negative gradient will be offset by the positive acceleration of the positive gradient.

I would enjoy being wrong and seeing a working model spinning on its own with great gusto!

Cheers,
edo

Nali2001 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2007, 10:47:26 PM »

Hi all, well I'm afraid this can't be modeled in FEMM because FEMM is 2d. And in this case, seen from above you have two magnets on top of each other for each 'magnet-pair'. Their interaction and ability to create a ?closed flux loop? under the retainer plate is important and since they are above eachother it can't be modeled with 2d FEMM?

True the device must be gear-connected for rotating in sync

The most attracted magnets will in fact have not much trouble going under the retainer plate, because: of the attraction to metal and the retainer provides a 'flux close loop' / 'path of least resistance'. So the magnet will prefer that above all.

There is a physics simulator standard in 3d studio called 'Reactor' But I don't believe it can model flux interaction.

Thanks for all your replies
Steven

Low-Q · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2007, 11:04:59 PM »

Quote from: Nali2001 on March 08, 2007, 02:22:53 PM

Hi all, I need you all to think on this one here for me. Here is an interesting permanent magnet motor working in attraction mode.
What do you think? This is the most basic layout I guess. Also see the attached video.

Workable?

Thanks!
Steven

I believe it might be as "workable" as this design:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2029.0.html

However:
If you tune the steel rings length so there is an equal force that is pulling the magnets into closed loop in each end of the steel "ring", you have only the attraction force between the "open" magnets left in sum. You are sort of canceling out the sticky points by making two equal counter sticky points in each end of the steel ring. In my mind this might work!

Make one, so we can see.

I also agree with others here: Gear up both wheels so they are synchronized.

Br.

Vidar

Nali2001 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2007, 11:11:04 PM »

Hi there Low-q.
Yeah I have seen that design before (looking good) but I do believe that the here presented design is superior.

If you tune the steel rings length so there is an equal force that is pulling the magnets into closed loop in each end of the steel "ring", you have only the attraction force between the "open" magnets left in sum. You are sort of canceling out the sticky points by making two equal counter sticky points in each end of the steel ring. In my mind this might work!

That is exactly the most important thing that could make this thing work.
Of course the sticky point will not be 100% equaled, but any cancelation is a gain.

Thanks!
Steven

Low-Q · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2007, 11:34:22 PM »

What if we redesign the whole thing;
We use a fixed flat magnetbar instead of the second disc. No need for sync. between the two discs, as we remove one and replace it with a flat, fixed one - which sort of will make a mirror magnetic image of the one disk left. Any thoughts?

And I will probably believe it might work in repelling mode as well.

Vidar

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Author Topic: Possible permanent magnet motor working in attraction mode (Read 18017 times)

Nali2001

Possible permanent magnet motor working in attraction mode

TheOne

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mikestocks2006

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idnick

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Nali2001

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idnick

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tsakou

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Nali2001

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dutchy1966

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hartiberlin

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edo

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Nali2001

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Low-Q

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Nali2001

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Low-Q

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