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Author Topic: Has anyone tried this?  (Read 10260 times)

Offline lwh

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Has anyone tried this?
« on: February 24, 2007, 11:06:25 AM »
Just wondering.

http://fdp.nu/mikelldevice/thedevice.asp

The whole story looks really dubious to me.  I can't see why it would work, but at the same time, I find the image of the magnet-covered donut form interesting somehow,    so I've been playing around with some 3mm neo cubes stuck to some MDF, using bits of an old ceiling fan as a base for it to spin on.

It's spun repeatedly by itself for up to almost a quarter revolution, but I don't know why.  It could have just been a strong repulsion action followed by a comparitive lack of magnetic reaction. 

There's what I'd call a wavy corrugated effect you can feel when slowly rotating the disk, where you can feel the magnets repulsing each other line by line.  When you  let the disk go at the top of one of these waves or corrugations it will often jump up over the next wave and keep going for a little while.  As I said, the furthest Ive seen it go was about a quarter of a revolution (or something under 90 degrees).

I'm not really sure if I want to keep dabbling with this, so just thought I'd share the information before I put it away.  It might help prevent others from unecessarily covering the same ground.

Here are some pictures.  I've since redone the donut with the magnets on a more angled spiral, but have found it less effective.

   

Les.

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Has anyone tried this?
« on: February 24, 2007, 11:06:25 AM »

Offline Liberty

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2007, 02:43:49 PM »
Nice pictures and work.  The design seems to be similar to a Perendev magnet arrangement where more magnets are in attraction mode than in attractive lock or repel.  Golden ratio...  I have found that it takes away the rotational strength of a device if any magnet is allowed to fully encounter an opposing magnetic field.

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2007, 04:27:03 PM »
I spent about $50.00 and a couple weekends making my, "sound theory," permanent magnet motor.  That was when I learned about the unanticipated sticky spots.

If it were easy to make a permanent magnet motor work then everyone would be making them.  I have not completely lost my faith that it is possible.  I still enjoy entertaining the idea.  However, my threshold of construction initiation is much higher now.  I would rather pulse some coils these days.

I echo Liberty's endorsement of the Golden Ratio.  My latest musings entertain a concept very similar to this post involving Golden Spirals and Fibonacci Numbers:

If you look at the end of a pine cone you will see eight rows of nubs spiraling in one direction and thirteen rows of nubs spiraling in the opposite direction.  Eight and thirteen are Fibonacci Numbers.  Every nub of the pine cone belongs to both of these counter rotating spirals at the same time.

(If you look at all of the spirals in this proposed design series at the link posted, you will see only one direction of spirals taken into account.  Yet, the individual magnets are like pine cone nubs in that they are points, not lines.  We may find a connecting spiral pattern in the opposite direction of the current design by accident, but I do not think that it was a design intent.)

Once the memory of my previous failure fades, I may attempt to pursue this line of thinking.  Perhaps I will use an actual pine cone and glue magnets directly to the nubs.  Size, shape, and orientation of the magnets are undecided at this point.  Perhaps it will come to me in a dream.


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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2007, 04:27:03 PM »
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Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2007, 07:13:48 PM »
Excellent work LWH

You must have hell of alot of patience, that must of taken ages.

I played with laying spirals out on Plexiglass a few months ago, like the small model he shows, but it did not do alot must admit.

Keep up the good work

Regards

Sean.

Offline lwh

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2007, 09:00:04 PM »
Thanks for your replies.

It's funny you mention the counter-rotating spirals on the pine-cones Rosphere, as I noticed the same thing developing on the later, more angled, magnet arrangements I tried (not pictured).  And it did make me wonder if it was somehow crucial to the design. 

To deliberately and accurately lay out the magnets in a way that keeps both spirals in a proper line would be very difficult though, and I don't think I have the patience for trying that at the moment.

Les.     

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2007, 09:00:04 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2007, 08:57:06 PM »
IWH: Of course, a video will show how it works?

Br.

Vidar

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2007, 09:12:56 PM »
.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 03:08:53 AM by Rosphere »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2007, 09:12:56 PM »
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Offline lwh

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2007, 09:19:06 PM »
Low-Q, if you were asking me to show a video, I don't have any, sorry.

Les.

Offline Dansway

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2007, 11:36:27 PM »
Hi lwh,

Nice work, but I don't think your design is right.

I think this motor should be built with a male/female - push/pull structure.

Half the motor should attract and the other half should repel.  You need to use both sides of the torus!  The rotor should not be flat, but enter and exit the toroid opening on both sides like this:  0>I<0 

Good luck and nice work.

You might find some ideas to help you in the files section of my yahoogroup:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/magnetech-research/

Regards,
Dan LaRochelle



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2007, 11:36:27 PM »
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Offline xpenzif

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2007, 10:04:20 PM »
Suppose two magnets are held together in opposition(like north pole on north pole).
Is the force with which the two magnets push apart equal, or less than the force it took to actually put them in this position of opposition?

The same can be asked about attraction: Is the energy that can be generated from two magnets attracting each other equal, or less than the energy it will take to pull them back apart?

These spiral designs can be elusive. The work that is done by a magnet has to be "undone"(thats why you get sticky spots).

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2007, 10:33:32 PM »
@xpenzif,

Undoing can be accomplished by properly superimposing another conservative field such as the gravitational filed leading to producing more energy out than in. This is how SMOT violates the principle of conservation of energy.

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2007, 10:33:32 PM »
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Offline xpenzif

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2007, 06:17:53 AM »
@omnibus
I have a question. Which point is lower?
A: the starting position where the ball/object is placed.
B: the position where the ball comes to rest after dropping off of the peak of the ramp.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2007, 06:41:26 AM »
@xpenzif,

Answering these questions will not help you to understand why SMOT violates the principle of conservation of energy.

If that?s what you need to understand (and that?s what?s really important) observe http://omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif whereby, obviously, the gravitational potential energy spent is mgh1 while the gravitational potential energy lost is mg(h1 + h2), that is, greater than the gravitational potential energy spent when the loop is closed, which is a clear violation of the principle of conservation of energy. All this in a closed A-B-C-A loop in the magnetic field which means that no magnetic potential energy has been spent or lost when the loop is closed.

So far SMOT, constructed so that two conservative fields are properly superimposed, is the easiest reproducible way to demonstrate violation of energy conservation beyond doubt.

Offline xpenzif

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2007, 08:46:05 AM »
Can't see the image but I looked at a couple others.

The object has more gravitational potential energy at the peak of the ramp than what it started with, but the only reason the work generated by the magnets isn't being undone is because the starting point needs to be higher than the resting point- If point C were as high as point A then the work would have to be undone because it would be too close to the magnets.


Just an idea, I could place a piece of metal on the floor and wave a magnet over it and have the metal "jump" and cling on to the magnet I am holding. Now the metal has more gravitational potential energy than it had on the floor. Free gravitational potential energy. I will only get to do it once, but I guess thats the same problem with smot.

Offline lwh

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Re: Has anyone tried this?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2007, 11:28:06 AM »
"Suppose two magnets are held together in opposition(like north pole on north pole).
Is the force with which the two magnets push apart equal, or less than the force it took to actually put them in this position of opposition?"

I'd say less.

"The same can be asked about attraction: Is the energy that can be generated from two magnets attracting each other equal, or less than the energy it will take to pull them back apart?"

I'd say less.

This is why I don't believe any mechanical design or process will work. 

When magnets are attracted to each other, a greater or equal force is required to separate them.  And when magnets are repulsing each other, a greater or equal force is required to join them. 

The best you can get is a force applied once which balances the magnets and allows them move freely in relation to each other, but with an overall greater degree of inertia.  The analogy I think of is like a huge stone disk that is balanced so it can spin freely and will do so for longer than a lighter object similarly spun.  I hope that makes sense.

So if I believe this, why would I bother with the magnetic toroid?  Because I wasn't sure if it was a mechanical magnetic set up or powered by some other means.  Which is to say, "These spiral designs can be elusive."

Also, what I believe to be true and what I wish to be true are sometimes different things, but I'm free to act on both (and neither).

Les. 

 

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