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Author Topic: The anomalous kicks  (Read 11357 times)

Offline EMdevices

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The anomalous kicks
« on: February 18, 2007, 04:36:53 PM »
Hi everyone,

I obtained these unusual oscillations, a series of spikes of about 150 VOLTS.

There is no input sqare wave to triger it, it does it all by itself !!!!



Steven Mark talks about his output being mostly DC with hash,  the spikes I get, if put in a capacitor would produce DC and some hash.

I'm going for loop closure,  keep you're fingers crossed  :)

P.S.   

Diode Model # B4302H1, rated at 5V, package is confusing I'm seeing some specs for 12 Volts, 50 Volts, Hmm?   It says it has internal resistance.

Transistor is a Bipolar Junction Transistor, simular to NTE2301 but its a PNP not NPN.  I'm not sure what its actual part number is since I don't have the package.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 01:26:38 AM by EMdevices »

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The anomalous kicks
« on: February 18, 2007, 04:36:53 PM »

Offline giantkiller

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 04:59:40 PM »
Hi everyone,

I obtained these unusual ocillations, a series of spikes of about 150 VOLTS.

There is no input sqare wave to triger it, it does it all by itself !!!!



Steven Mark talks about his output being mostly DC with hash,  the spikes I get, if put in a capacitor would produce DC and some hash.

I'm going for loop closure,  keep you're fingers crossed  :)

If you could please expose 5 things: the back end of the battery and its connections, the hidden part of the scope cable, the scope connection, the top part of  the scope. There is a pathway out of sight of the viewer behind the battery, behind the scope, out the top of the picture.

Thank you, Giantkiller.  8)

Offline EMdevices

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 05:07:37 PM »
Hi GK, 
you know me better than that,  I'm surprised at your doubt.  :(

By the way, no amout of pictures will convince a skeptic. 
What if I stored a previous waveform on the scope?   you know it does have a HOLD button on it. 

Respectfully,

EM

P.S.  Ok, see nothing hidden, are you satisfied now?   :)

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 05:07:37 PM »
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Offline EMdevices

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 05:27:15 PM »
wow, this thing has different modes of resonance. If I move my hand in its proximity it adds a little wiggle next to the big spike.

sometimes it does not start the oscillations and I have to WAIVE A MAGNET NEAR BY !!!

P.S.   This goes to show, there are things we discover by experimentation.  I had no idea I was going to see that.  I was trying to make an oscillator.  It's an oscillator allright, but very strange, very very strange.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 06:24:34 PM »
Hi EM;
what is the circuit diagram ?

Just one Transistor or MOSFET and
2 coils  and a resistor and LED and CAP ?

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 06:24:34 PM »
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Offline Loki67671

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2007, 06:54:39 PM »
EM,
A quick schematic please. What device do you have in there? Is that coil connected Collector to Base if BJT / Source to Gate if FET? ................Loki........................

Go have a look here and see if there is anything of interest.
http://www.math.uio.no/~karstent/waves/index_en.html

 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2007, 07:11:45 PM »
Hi,

The spikes shown on the scope remembers me pulse shapes from a blocking oscillator.

See for instance this link but there are many others:
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/36e.htm

Regards
Gyula

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2007, 07:11:45 PM »
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Offline giantkiller

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2007, 07:52:07 PM »
@EMD,
Tnx. Better pic! Just for the total clarity for all.
The electronics would definately fit inside a TPU.

Offline Mannix

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2007, 10:47:39 PM »
Em,

Looks interesting, have you a different cro to try?

My latest measurments mean that instrument influence may be a factor. Digital devices can give some strange effects..look foward to your experiment. bearing fruit.

lindsay

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2007, 10:47:39 PM »
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Offline Rosphere

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2007, 12:23:34 AM »
EMdevices,

Of the four wires from the coil I see:

1. The far-right coil-wire goes to the corner hole sharing the battery ground and LED ground?
2. The center-right coil-wire goes to the 5th hole from the corner sharing the left MOSFET pin?
3. The center-left coil-wire goes to the 3rd hole from the corner sharing the right MOSFET pin and battery power and LED plus?
4. The far-left coil-wire goes to the 4th hole from the corner sharing the center MOSFET pin and scope plus?

I almost forgot to ask, what is the continuity of the coil wires WRT the names/connections used above; is the far-right and far-left wire the same wire?

Is anything wrong or missing from this interpretation?

I made a replication.  I tried several coil and LED connectivity patterns.  I am not seeing anything but initial spikes, then nothing.

Please see my photos and let me know if something is wrong.

EDIT: I am pulling my replication images from this reply.  I have it wired incorrectly.  Thank you for posting the circuit on reply one, EMdevices.  :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 01:53:10 PM by Rosphere »

Offline EMdevices

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 04:43:43 AM »
Sorry to keep you guys waiting, I was a bit bussy today. I posted the circuit on the first post, so its upfront.

Just remember, don't get too excited, spikes are nothing new, when current is interupted in a coil it builds to a high voltage.

The interesting thing here is that triggering happens according to some rules, which I'm trying to understand.   I already found out the diode plays a part, if I take it out it does not work.   Then it's the coils maybe?  Coil BJT interactions?, who knows.

You're so right Lindsay, thank's for pointing that out, instruments can leak some RF and cause confusion when measuring stuff, especialy digital equipment.  The scope I have seems to be pretty good, but I check all the time

EM 

P.S.  I forgot to mention, the diameter of the coils is about 6.5 cm
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 05:09:29 AM by EMdevices »

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2007, 04:43:43 AM »
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Offline Loki67671

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 12:26:45 PM »
EMD,
An oscillator circuit is also something I have considered. What a truly complex monster that would be. Consider three oscillators, coupled by the complex interactions in the TPU windings. This may just be the "simple" (not so simple) device SM talked about. IF we are able to provide a little bit of "extra" energy, i.e. small kick from the Earths magnetic field or any other for that matter,  back to the base of your transistor in positive feed back..........................ohhhh my.............Assuming the extra energy comes from outside of the circuit.......Now we chase the elusive "perpetual motion" critter. Many students, myself included, have been admonished by professors and instructors, at this very point in their educations. The question is why can't this be made to run itself? Losses are one thing and very real.......but if we can grab an external push or pull at the right time and magnitude...............then we are there.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2007, 02:16:38 PM »
Hi EM,
thanks for the circuit.

Could it be, that your battery is already a bit weak ?

Normally a RED LED should burn out, if directly connected to a
fresh 9 Volts battery without a current limiting resistor !?

If you have a real power supply, does it work on this too ?
Then be cautious, or your LED will be destroyed
or you can then just try only with about 1.7 to 2 Volts..

Thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
P.S: How much current does your oscillator use ?
What is the voltage across the LED diode ?

Offline EMdevices

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2007, 03:22:56 PM »
Hi Stephan,

I forgot to mention, the diode is special diode rated for 12 volts,  I'm sure it has a resistor inside.  It's a general purpose diode for POWER ON indicator panels, etc.

Battery is about 8.5 volts, discharged a bit, I've used it for some time with other experiments.

I have not measured the current draw, but I'm sure it's a bit high, since the transistor gets hot.  I imagine it conducts between the spikes, then for some reason it decides to stop, as if there's some sort of breakdown in the BJT, then it resumes and breaks down again. 

I'll do more experiments on it this week.

Loki,
I like what you're saying.  I too belive the TPU is a resonant device with FEEDBACK.   The trick is to know what resonates and how, so we can design the right oscillator.   

SM has said to use tubes, I'm now seeing why he is insisting on it.  I will not go in that direction however, since I don't have all the skill necessary, and they are hard to find.    He made comments that the circuitry needs to be inside the TPU, why?  For feedback I'm sure.

EM
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 10:19:01 PM by EMdevices »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: The anomalous kicks
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2007, 05:19:16 PM »
Hi Em,
please edit your circuit diagramm,
so it shows the current limiting resistor of your diode.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

 

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