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Author Topic: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic  (Read 74222 times)

Offline The Eskimo Quinn

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2008, 02:43:34 AM »
For the last post, i think do to the number of threads you should have probably used a general announcement so everyone could see, I have had them sunce being on this site also, however, conspiracy theories nuts aside, if the government was ever going to activly target a website, which websites do you think that would be??? I doubt the webmaster can do too much or is responsible

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Offline Kator01

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2008, 07:44:08 PM »
Hello Eskimo Quinn,

problem is already known to stefan. But it seems to consist, as another member reported trojan-attack as he was just opening a german thread.

We may have a pattern. Maybe some threads are selectively choosen to get attacked- True conspiracy - all nuts

Since some of  these viruses are based on Java-Skript simply turn off Java and Java-Sript if you read and post here

Regards

Kator

Offline pequaide

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2008, 03:27:52 AM »
The (Kogel, Leipzig) pendulum at work is about 8.5 inches (21.6 cm) in length. It has a period of a little less than a second (55 cycles per minute). It is on a bearing and the bob is square (not aerodynamic). The bob has a mass of about .8 kilograms. We don?t even keep a dust cover on the open bearing. It will swing back and forth for at least 31 minutes. That is 55 * 4 * 31 = 6840 quarter cycles. So in the first down swing the pendulum bob will have approximately 99.985 % (1/6840) of the total energy that would be available to it.

Quinn: You quote huge energy losses for pendulums. I have no idea what you are talking about. I think your racking (post145) is an excuse.   

Let?s assume that the (Kogel, Leipzig) pendulum drops .216 meters; that would give the bob a maximum low point velocity of 2.058 m/sec, but only if it was in a vacuum and if the bearing point was friction free. Air resistant is probably greater than bearing friction, but let?s give half the resistance to each. So in a vacuum the pendulum bob would be moving 2.058 m/sec * 99.9925% = 2.0578 m/sec. This means that the resistance in the first down swing of the pendulum bob is not measurable with the equipment we are using. And the resistance is insignificant. So I think this alleged 75% loss to racking (Quinn) is an excuse some are using to pretend that energy can?t be made from gravity. 00.0075% doesn?t seem like an impediment to me.

Kator01 All that is needed for a cylinder and spheres device is a horizontally mounted wheel with a center bearing (a pulley), and low friction carts. The pulley has to be wrapped with a string that then has a mass (cart) attached to the end. When the mass on the moving pulley is released the mass will unwrap the string and apply a force in the opposite direction of the motion of the wheel. If the pulley has a mass or is being pulled by a second mass, the mass of the wheel (pulley) or the second mass will stops (unless it is greatly larger than the unwrapping mass).

Let me give you this scenario. A nine kilogram block is moving in a straight line; it is followed by a tenth kilogram a short distance away. All ten kilograms are moving 1 m/sec on dry ice. The nine kilograms has a string attached that is unwrapping from a pulley or wheel, but the pulley is at first providing no resistance. The trailing kilogram is caught by the pulley and is placed on a string that is wrapped around the wheel as in paragraph one. A string from the 9 kg block applies its motion to the pulley but only the one trailing kilogram is caught in the rotation of the wheel of the pulley.  As the one kilogram swings out and unwraps the string on the pulley the nine kilograms stops.

You started with 10 kilograms moving one meter per second in a straight line, you end with one kilogram moving in a straight line, and if you choose you can direct it to travel in the same direction.

If your machine that you propose to measure the velocity of the spheres, or swinging out mass, does not comply with The Law of Conservation of Momentum then isn?t the machine worthy of the Nobel Prize in Physics?

If you start with 10 units of momentum (in the above scenario) and end with say 3.2 units then hasn?t Newton?s Three Laws of Motion been violated. These Laws require that the momentum of a closed system remain constant. If the one kilogram object that is now moving only 3.16 m/sec slams into the 9 kilograms at rest what will the new momentum of the 10 combined kilograms be, and where did the 6.84 units of momentum go?

I am not trying to be an antagonist of your work; I earnestly await your results. I am merely pointing out that if your results show that The Law of Conservation of Momentum is false then the cylinder and spheres phenomenon is a significant violation in the world of physics. If on the other hand the one kilogram object in the above scenario moves away at 10 m/sec, and complies with The Law of Conservation of Momentum, the concept would be a free energy source.

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2008, 03:27:52 AM »
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Offline Homer S.

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #108 on: January 13, 2008, 02:27:28 PM »
Hello pequaide,

Kator01 told me in a German thread about your setup and your ideas of interchanging momentum between different sizes fo masses.
Contrary to Kator01 I'm still not convinced to achieve any additional energy with your stated setup ideas therefore it would be nice if you may enlighten me in some open issues.

Quote
Kator01 All that is needed for a cylinder and spheres device is a horizontally mounted wheel with a center bearing (a pulley), and low friction carts. The pulley has to be wrapped with a string that then has a mass (cart) attached to the end. When the mass on the moving pulley is released the mass will unwrap the string and apply a force in the opposite direction of the motion of the wheel. If the pulley has a mass or is being pulled by a second mass, the mass of the wheel (pulley) or the second mass will stops (unless it is greatly larger than the unwrapping mass).

1. How will the cart(s) move outwards? In my opinion if there isn't any friction between cart and surface, the released cart (mass) will move tangential away with circumferential velocity and unwrap the string. Do you agree?

2. If you agree with my assumption under (1) how can the cart (mass) apply a force in the opposite direction of the motion of the wheel? Please can you explain this assumption more deeper?

3. Why do you assume that the mass of the wheel (pulley) will stop spinning after releasing the mass (cart) placed at the circumference of the wheel?  I can not see any reason for such a behavior.

I think that are key questions about a possible functionality of your stated test setup and respectively advanced ideas. Therefore I hope you can provide satisfactory answers.

Regards,
Homer

Offline Kator01

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #109 on: January 13, 2008, 05:55:28 PM »
Hello pequaide,

I have attached two picture which show the principe I have in mind. In pic Drillbohrer-crankhaft.jpg you
see the main principle how rotating steel-spheres attached via strings to a spindle-nut will wind up if the spindle-axis is in a fixed position. After momentum is transfered to the spheres and the cylinder has come to rest the balls wind up the spindle-nut to a position by which you directly can measure Epot = m x g x h.

If there is a gain of 200 to 300 % in energy than friction-losses -  even if they are 50 % - is not the problem here.

The second picture shows a cylinder ( red ) with a toothed rim. In this case the rim should only have two ( 2 ) tooths at which the rope spins around at momentum-transfer. Not shown in the pic are two electromagnets attached to the spindle.Only the spindle will be accellerated by a motor.These two electromagnets hold the spheres in the cylinder-holes from inside the cylinder and by doing this will take the cylinder with them - meaning the cylinder will also be accellerated. At the desired speed you cut of the supply of both the motor and the electromagnet and do a full-break at the spindle-exis. The spindle has to come to rest immediately so that the spindle-nut can wind-up vertically reaching in the end a position with Epot = m x g x h.

Due to new business-activities I will not be able to build this but with this setup you can easily proof your concept thus avoiding complicated video-strobe-measurements.

Tell me what you think about this.

Kator

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #109 on: January 13, 2008, 05:55:28 PM »
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Offline pequaide

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2008, 02:25:59 AM »
Homer; The released sphere (or cart) would travel tangent to the circumference of the spinning cylinder (or wheel) but there is a string attached to the sphere and it is wrapped forward of the sphere?s release point (or wheel's release point) along the circumference of the cylinder (or wheel). This string prevents the tangent course of travel for the sphere.

Draw a circle with a tangent line. If you draw a diagram with equal distances marked off along the circumference of the moving circle, these marks would represent the motion of the point of release. Equal distances marked off along the tangent line would represent the new position of the sphere after equal units of time from the release. This shows how the point of release is moving away from the tangent line of travel of the sphere and the distance between the sphere and the point of release becomes larger and larger.

The point of attachment of the string to the cylinder moves away from the sphere?s tangent line of travel as well; the string creates a second tangent line between the point of contact of the string with the cylinder and the sphere. The string connected to the sphere remains tangent, as it unwraps, until the point of attachment of the string with the cylinder is reached. Since the distance from the sphere, on its tangent line, to the point of contact of the string with the cylinder is greater than the corresponding length of the string; the string will pull the sphere off the tangent line. The sphere will obtain a new direction.

A portion of the force in the string is in the same direction as the line of travel of the sphere, this force will accelerate the sphere. The sphere will obtain a new velocity, as will the cylinder.  The remaining forces in the string are balanced centripetal and centrifugal forces.

With the new velocity of the component parts and new angles, the force applied in the direction of the sphere?s travel will also change.  The sphere will obtain a new direction a new velocity and a new force, this new direction new velocity and new force will happen for every subdivision of time.   

The force in the string is in the opposite direction of the line of travel (rotation) of the mass in the cylinder, this force will slow the rotation of the cylinder. The force in the string is equal in both directions (Newton?s Third Law of Motion).

You get a complex arrangement of angles and forces but the fact that the cylinder stops has been proven by experiments.

According to Newton?s Second Law of Motion (F = ma) the equal forces applied to the cylinder and the spheres will cause equal momentum changes on both ends of the string. The momentum change of the cylinder will equal the momentum change in the spheres.

Some scenarios are thought experiments, many are real experiments that have been video taped, strobe light photographed, and photo gate timed. Some experiments are hand held some are in spinning mechanical arms and some were conducted on a frictionless plane. All experimental data shows that Newtonian physics is correct, and that the cylinder and spheres phenomenon (the transfer of momentum from a large mass to a smaller mass) is a means of energy production.

Offline Homer S.

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2008, 05:16:09 PM »
Quote
Homer; The released sphere (or cart) would travel tangent to the circumference of the spinning cylinder (or wheel) but there is a string attached to the sphere and it is wrapped forward of the sphere?s release point (or wheel's release point) along the circumference of the cylinder (or wheel). This string prevents the tangent course of travel for the sphere.

Pequaide, I have another question: is the string wrapped in the same direction as the rotation direction of the cylinder or in opposite direction?
However, regardless the winding direction of the string, the string cannot apply a force to the sphere (mass) as long as the string will be unwrapped by the cylinder and tangential moving sphere because string and sphere have the same value of velocity.

I hope you agree so far?

Regards,
Homer


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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2008, 05:16:09 PM »
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Offline pequaide

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2008, 02:29:56 AM »
In the mechanical arm model the spheres are moving 1.29 m/sec; if not for the force in the string restraining the spheres after release they would move tangent and be over 1 meter away from the cylinder in less than a second. This forced restraint cost the cylinder all of its motion. Yes; there is force in the string. They are moving at the same speed but they are not moving in the same direction, the string must force the sphere back into a circular path.   

Offline Homer S.

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2008, 05:53:16 PM »
Good day pequaide,

It's a pity that you didn't answer my question about the wrapping direction of the string in relation to the rotation direction of the cylinder. Hence I guess wrapping and rotation direction are equal!?

I have attached a sketch which shows stills of motion of the released spheres how I would expect it. However, gravitation forces are not taken into account at all.

Here my remarks to the single points:

1. Fixed spheres rotating around the circumference of the cylinder at velocity value Vu.

2. Spheres are released and moving away in tangential direction. The connected string is unwrapping from the cylinder. The velocity of cylinder's circumference, spheres and connected strings is identical and unaltered at velocity value Vu.

3. Strings are still unwrapping from the cylinder. Same conditions as stated under No. 2.

4. Unwrapping of the strings is finished. Tangential movement of the spheres is abrupt stopped by the strings. The translation energy of the spheres as well as a accordant part of the rotation energy of the cylinder was changed into stretch energie (elastic force) and at last into heat.
That means the formely translation energy of the spheres is no more available.

5. The remaining rotation energy of the cylinder (if there is any left) will be partly transferred to the spheres and because of the tight strings the spheres begin to rotate around the center of mass of cylinder and spheres.
The remaining rotation energy is much smaller as at the begin with fixed spheres at the circumference of the cylinder. Thus V1u will be much smaller than Vu, depending on the mass of cylinder, spheres and string length.

Sorry, but how I understand it you have built more or less a break instead of a energy device.  ;)

Regards,
Homer




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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2008, 05:53:16 PM »
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Offline pequaide

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2008, 11:39:15 PM »
Well Homer ?how you would expect it? is wrong.

The tangent direction is immediately altered by immediate force in the string; it doesn?t wait to jerk the sphere back it happens immediately.


The string goes forward of the sphere,

Offline Kator01

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2008, 11:52:31 PM »
Hello,

I had a look at your drawing, HomerS. Upon release of the spheres at 12 h the stings will at no time hang around so loose. They will be at all time streched by the continuously rotating cylinder. The misunderstandig you have here is the position of the rope in the slit and the direction of the rotation. One end of the slit is in permanent contact with the string up to the point the cylinder stops and has transferred its momentum to the spheres.If this has happened the spheres rotate around the centre axis whereby the rope moves along the slit to the other end of it and then the rope takes the cylinder again with it.
Measuring the transition-time along the length of the slit will give you the angle-velocity and by the total radius of the rope you will get the temporary circumference-velocity during transition-time along the length of the slit.

If you look at the hand-drawing of pequaide the cylinder is rotating counter-clockwise and the slit begins at number 1 extending somewhere along  to number 5 position. In this way the beginning of the slit is alway in contact to the rope and thus stretching it until momentum is transfered.

I can not follow your far fetched claims of loosing all energy in form of heat or elastic stretch of the steel-string at this low velocities. The elastic stretch is no energy-loss.

This is the reason why I proposed another setup in my last post. I hope I will have the time during the next 6 month to build it or pequaide accepts this for another try for himself. I still miss his comment on this.

As I understand pequaide he simply asks people to replicate and find out themselves.
You repeat the pattern I have noticed in our german discussion. You start with your basic assumption of the conservation of energy and develop your arguments from this point of view.
In this way you will never ever come to new knowledge. You should know better after reading the german booklet of Otto Stein. It is all written in there.

Regards

Kator


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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2008, 11:52:31 PM »
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Offline pequaide

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2008, 02:36:29 AM »
I thought I should make diagrams to demonstrate how it really works, but I thought simulated pictures would take less time.

I put in a video tape of a hand held model to see what the positions of the spheres, that Homer proposed, really look like. I am using a cut shell to hold the spheres where they appear to be in the four frames in which the video tape shows the spheres opening.

 Frames in a video tape are 1/30 of a second apart. In only three frames (3/30 of a second: in one frame the spheres are still closed) the spheres are fully open. The spheres open in 1/10 of a second.

The first simulated picture replicates the video tape frame just at the (approximate) release point.

 The second simulated pictures shows that about 1/30 of a second later the sphere is just clear of the seat.  The seat has moved about its own length. This is my best guess at the second frame in the video tape.

The third simulated picture shows the sphere and string at about 45? from a tangent to the point where the string attaches to the cylinder. The seat moved about half its length. This is my best guess at the third frame in the video tape.

The fourth simulated picture shows the sphere and string at 90? from a tangent to the point where the string attaches to the cylinder. The seat moved about a fourth of its length. This is my best guess at the fourth frame in the video tape. The cylinder is stopped while the string is in the slit.

I was surprised myself how quickly the spheres stop the cylinder; I was guessing one fourth rotation. In this video tape it looks closer to one eighth.

Kator01 you have a grasp of what I am doing, and that I am asking people to replicate the experiment. I also think your ideas are fascinating, but right now I am thinking of doing more work with the mechanical arms, and trying to go to a more overhead view with the video tapes. 

Offline pequaide

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2008, 02:42:39 AM »
VGAs are pretty blurry, I will go back to 1M next time.

Offline Homer S.

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2008, 07:17:58 PM »
Hello Kator,

I agree that if the length of the string is short enough that the strings will allways be stretched by the cylinder . Sorry but I didn't know anything about the length of the strings. If the strings are longer, the behavior in the very split seconds after releasing  the spheres will be similar as stated in my drawing.

Anyway, after releasing the spheres there are acting two forces at each sphere:
1. force in tangential direction
2. force applied by the string

The resulting force will change the direction of the sphere into rotation direction. This "sphere-catching" activity needs physical work and cause the cylinder to slow down or stop its rotation, depending of the cylinder's mass and origin angular velocity, i.e. its origin momentum directly after releasing the spheres.

That's the reason why the spheres "overtake" the cylinder rotation in the slit. In this sense you are right if you state momentum of the cylinder was transferred to the spheres, however the overall momentum cannot be greater than the origin momentum with fixed spheres at the circumference of the cylinder. 

And please accept the fact that the velocitiy of cylinder's circumference and tangential speed of the spheres are equal! I'm afraid you're not aware of this fact although I have stated this several times in the German SARA-thread.

Hence the spheres are able to overtake the cylinder rotation in the slit because the cylinder rotation slowed down and not because the spheres rotation have increased! 

In the German thread you asked to post directly here in this thread if there are any questions about this setup idea. But now you state here that I better keep my arguments and assumptions under my hat. All right I will accept again your new position.

And by the way, I do not agree in any case to  the statements in the booklet of Otto Stein. His assumptions are wrong. For instance you cannot calculate complex asymmetric rotational movements by separating them into two or more single symmetric rotational movements. Or should I better unbalance all my car tires to create energy?  ;D
Hey...das ist wirklich haneb?chener Unsinn!  Das glaubst Du doch nicht??? :o

I can recommend a good German book: Dorn Bader Physik Oberstufe.  ;)

That are my 2 cents regarding this issue.

@pequaide
Thank you for your pictures for better imagination. I have posted my point of few above and I'm convienced I'm right. I will check this thread about news of your break setup.  Anyway, have much fun! ;)

Regards,
Homer

« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 08:08:41 PM by Homer S. »

Offline Kator01

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Re: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physic
« Reply #119 on: January 19, 2008, 01:42:49 AM »
Hello pequaide,

thank you very much for theses pictures. It was a bit surprising to me me but finally one can clearly see how the process works. Very good simulation. The spheres a accellerated outwards along a  90 degree arc too the final position. During this transition-phase the spin-inertia and the speed of the spheres-system increases to its maximum value and this consumes all the momentum of the cylinder.

Of course I understand that you have your own plans to follow through with further steps. I also was thinking about a mechanical arms, but then you will have less degree of freedom for the spheres to move. But I think it will work also. I would rather think of bycycle-chains if one plans to start with higher speed-tests.
But then the question remains : How do you harvest the energy gained ? This was the reason for my proposal whis can be modified  also with mechanical arms, because the gain has to be stored and I found this the simplest way to do and at the same time it will give you a direct measure of m x g x h.

Can it be done in another more simple way ? 

regards

Kator

@homerS : I wonder about your statement that Otto Steins calculation deal with unbalanced masses.
Have a look at a normal planetary gear ( (Planetengetriebe), all parts are well balanced. In the case of otto steins first Drehmotor-proposal it only has 2 planetary toothed wheels rotating around the circumference of the center toothed wheel but nevertheless balanced and without the outer toothed ring which makes up for this type of gear.This also is true for differential gear ( Differenzialgetriebe )
Believe me : it is difficult but engineers have done it. I myself had to calculate all that stuff during my engineering education for applied car-construction ( I forgot it all by now )
I simply give you another example here: During the 60`ths no none of the established engineers at BMW, Daimer etc believed it to be possible to construct a 5 cylinder-otto-motor because they believed it to be an impossible unbalanced system to build. Somewhere in  the years 1972 to 1976 ( where I graduated as a engineer ) AUDI prooved them all wrong and created this 5 cylinder engine.
Your quote "Or should I better unbalance all my car tires to create energy?  Grin " is simply a very bad example and does not fit here.

 

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