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Author Topic: Lifters are worthless  (Read 49105 times)

Offline Light

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2008, 10:22:22 PM »
Hard to say for sure, but some other tests showing like it’s reactionless motion. However in this particular case stator can rotate too; it means it still reactive interaction.
And besides, there’s no contacts, no brushes, just electrostatic induction.
Hope we’ll find the way to make it fly :)…
Thanks

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2008, 10:22:22 PM »

Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2008, 06:55:31 AM »
Making it fly would be great :))))

But I'd love just to understand it first, so that the force could be used more efficiently perhaps.  Has anyone tried any other variations of the motor and come to different conclusions as to the nature of this force??  Has anyone tested its strength using a different dielectric than air?  Has anyone tried permanent magnets to increase the magnetic field near the dielectric (something I did try in a half-assed way, but to seemingly no effect)....

Also, why was the force reduced when Naudin altered the shape of his capacitor plates

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/pftm2ind.htm

Doesnt seem to be an EM induction effect.  So...whats the received wisdom on overunity.com?  Always a pleasure to hear other theories   :D

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2008, 03:49:27 PM »
I think JLN's conclusion is wrong, or at least not supported by his data from the modified motor. The high current and the shape of the plates, with their sharp edges, indicate that much power is being lost to leakage and not being delivered to the rotor, for whatever thrust mechanism to use.
I don't think that electrostatic induction ( a somewhat different phenomenon than EM induction, flathunter ) has yet been ruled out. Poynting vector thrust has been postulated to occur in other situations also, but may not have been confirmed.
If it is possible, then reactionless drives, and hence free energy machines, may indeed be possible too.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2008, 03:49:27 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2008, 03:54:06 PM »
Oddly,

I have seen them talk about IONIC space travel... Learn me why NASA is developing this very technology for ionic space flight?

So if this is IONIC it should in theory work in space as well as I have seen claims that the space flight would work!

Secondly it is not stupid to develop this tech. How foolish to even say such a thing.

It is technology like this that may be used once the golden goose of energy generation is figured out OU is possible everyone knows it!
And yes someone will make good on this claim.

Let us not think with our primitive minds.

-infringer-

Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2008, 07:39:26 PM »
Sorry about the EM/electrostatic muddle...my bad :)

but if this were electrostatic induction, we would expect it to work better with the capacitor plates curved round the shape of the rotor, as J L Naudin tested in the above link.  Instead, he got much less power.  I got the same result when i tried curving my plates inward (using bog roll and foil).  Surely this makes it unlikely that charge redistribution is the culprit behind this strange force.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2008, 07:39:26 PM »
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Offline Light

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2008, 08:31:35 PM »
This kind of induction work better with sharp (pointed) ends, not curved; or at least with a flat parallel surfaces.
As for magnets, yes it may make sense, but it’s too heavy to notice any difference in set-up.
To get a Poyting vector we need electrostatic and magnetic fields crossed, so instead of magnet it may be used a coil (solenoid).
But the thrust here is still too low to make it fly, much less then lifter’s; only one hope - it might be reactionless…
Needa more tests…
Cheers

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2008, 10:34:33 PM »
Yes, ionic electric drives are indeed being developed for spacecraft propulsion in vacuum, and have the potential (pun intended!) to work very well indeed. They all incorporate a source of ions, though, like water or xenon, that is ionized and accelerated by the E field and ejected at very high velocity as reaction mass. These drives have high "specific impulse" even though the relative thrust magnitude is low.
The Poynting vector flow drive, if such exists, and the alleged Biefeld-Brown effect, supposedly function without the need for the ejection of reaction mass (ions, ion wind) and so are called "reactionless", and would seem to violate conservation of momentum, at least.
Here are three videos that may be downloaded, of some of my relevant devices. A small electrostatic generator, capable of reaching about 65 kV, is shown powering a few devices. The generator, a Moore's Dirod that I built in 2000, has carbon fiber neutral and transfer brushes, aluminum inductors and brass charge carriers, with an adjustable spark gap and about 400 pF of added capacitance (the 9 white "doorknobs" beneath the sparkgap). The bouncing balls are ping-pong balls coated with conductive paint, as are the balls in the modified Franklin induction motor. The corona motor is a disk of dielectric plastic, and has reached over 30,000 rpm.
http://www.mediafire.com/?kg1diqlmdim
http://www.mediafire.com/?yhjub1ulm4m
http://www.mediafire.com/?zswzj4cnqtg

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2008, 10:34:33 PM »
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Offline Light

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2008, 11:13:31 PM »
Nice job, TinselKoala
I have similar simple electrostatic pendulum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3tpq06Gq9Q
Works good even on one single charge.

Yes, ion-thruster is a good idea, but required a propellant mass to be spend and HV power source, so it’s still limited (in range of solar system if solar powered, and spendable ion-emitting material).
Poynting setup seem working (at least ions flow eliminated), but needa more tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVeQfZqVcAs

Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2008, 05:25:50 PM »
nice jobs to both of you :) 

Hope you continue writing on this thread, as im always interested in others who are playing round with the same stuff.

@light

What do you mean when you say you have eliminated ion flow?  Do you mean youve done experiments to prove ion flow isnt the (sole) factor behind the force, or that you have built the thruster in this video to eliminate ion flow, or do you mean both? Have patience with me...I'm new here  :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2008, 05:25:50 PM »
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Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2008, 05:41:21 PM »
Coming back to electrostatic induction, I can see why the typical soda bottle electrostatic motor, and Tinsels ping pong device, are simple redistributions and repulsions of like charges, but I cant see how that could possibly be the case with Naudins motor.

The problem I have is this:

the centre electrode is negative or positive, in relation to the other 2 electrodes (1 earthed, and one to the other polarity).  So where exactly does the induction take place??  Perhaps the insulating plastic of the rotor would become negative, but then it would remain at rest being attracted to the outer capacitor plates (or tins of krony :) ).  No?  Why would one side go up, and the other down?  I cant understand the mechanism.

Please explain to me your thoughts on this guys, and perhaps give me a well needed lesson!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2008, 06:35:40 PM »
I don't know if my analysis is correct, but here's a first pass:

The setup is as follows, from left to right: Left Stationary electrode, grounded. Rotating cylinder, floating. Right Stationary electrode, powered by HV source.

So the induction occurs like this: the RightHand electrode produces an E-field. This E-field acts on the charges in the metal of the rotating cylinder, which is insulated by the outer plastic. The charges in the metal separate under the influence of the stationary electrode's field. Say the RH electrode is negative. Then positive charge will be drawn to the region of the center cylinder that is in proximity to the RH electrode. Negative charge will be repelled and will wind up in the region of the center cylinder that is in proximity to the other (grounded, LH) electrode.
This is electrostatic induction.
Now, you have the rotor's center cylinder, inside its dielectric shield, having charges separated into regions of positive and negative charge, and opposite charges on the plastic above the metal. Since the apparatus cannot be perfectly symmetrical there will be an asymmetric force between the charged electrodes (the RH one negative and the LH one grounded, so relatively positive) and the regions of charge on the cylinder's dielectric shield. This asymmetry produces a ponderomotive force on the plastic shield which rotates it, along with its metal inner cylinder. Since the charges on the metal are free to move, they always stay under (or adjacent to) the inductors (the stationary electrodes). So the charged regions on the plastic will be moved out from under, as if they are being "squirted" out between the charges on the electrodes and the metal cylinder inside the rotor.

This is mostly all conjecture, based on my imperfect understanding of the devices I have built myself and researched. I think I am going to have to build a replica of JLN's motor and play with it a while before I am certain of its behaviour.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2008, 06:35:40 PM »
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Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2008, 06:59:20 PM »
Thanks for the reply Tinsel!

But I still dont get it....

You see, in the ''soda bottle motor'', the rotor is neutral, and the stationary electrodes opposite signs.  And as far as I can see, its almost what youve just described....just that you said one electrode was grounded, and the other positive or negative.  But the centre not electrically connected. 

But in Naudins motor the rotor is not only floating, but also highly charged with more than 20 kv (positive or negative).  Left stationary electrode grounded, Right positive (perhaps).  How could charge redistribute in the central rotor if its under such high voltage?  And how could one side possibly become more positve in relation to the ground, or to +20Kv.

I hope you do build it.  I recommend the kinder surprise and beer can set up.  ever so easy and quick to do, and very very fast!!!!  Ill get some photos up of minbe tomorrow  ;D

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2008, 05:45:22 PM »
I did some exhaustive testing for any reactionless effect of one of Jean-Louis's Poynting Flow Thrusters back in 2004:
 http://rimstar.org/sdprop/poynting/cdpoc1/cdpoc1.htm
They showed that the resulting force was a reaction one. They also showed just how much you have to do to eliminate the reaction forces. They crop up in surprising places and the usual sticking the device in a bag is often not enough.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline Pseudoscience

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »
Has anyone considered that lifters may work in a vacuum but actually need air in the gap between the wire and foil?

Has a test with this setup been tried at all?

Has anyone got any idea on this?

To me it seems you need something between the electrodes which a vacuum doesn't provide, what i mean to say is that a lifter may work in a vacuum but you need a self contained air filled space between the electrodes.

Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2008, 06:27:54 PM »
Thanks for the link steve.  Very detailed and informative, but I still couldnt find any pictures of the motor.  Did you try his motor? 

I find it hard to believe that an ionic wind could push my motor to such high speeds. And I dont really understand how the mechanism of ionic wind could explain the rotation of the rotor.  In a lifter I see exactly why ionic wind is caused, and how it provides thrust.  But for Naudins E-motor, I do not.  Can anyone offer an explanation? 

 

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