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Author Topic: Lifters are worthless  (Read 48764 times)

Offline Shanti

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2008, 11:28:51 PM »
@eserf:
I think Steve is right. I personally would just call it electrostatic induction. We all know this effect. If you have strong electric fields, you get charge separation in neutral atoms nearby, so that they get attracted. And due to the geometry of the egg, it is obvious, that the "top" of the egg will certainly have a higher potential than the bottom, and therefore would attract more air molecules and so would be sucked in this direction. This is why it moves in the opposite direction than due to ion wind.
I personally think strong, that this is the reason for the imbalance. So I really would recommend as the first test, when you again have the time to encapsulate it airtight. Only then you will know...
But i think you could also make a nice little FE-device with this effect. As it should produce a little wind. To make it purely passively, just take some electrets. I made a similar device, which just works the other way round, as FE demonstration object. But as my experiments have shown, the energy you can get of of these is so small, it really only serves for demonstration purposes and is not of any practical value.

Quote
If not so mutch Amperages (= Power) need, think
to use "electrostatic or piezo" Generators -

The problem is, amperage is needed! You need to ionize the air molecules, and for this you need current...
The principle which would be based on using the pure potential difference of the earth should not have this problem, but the force to expect is probably extremely weak.

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2008, 11:28:51 PM »

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2008, 04:53:36 AM »
1. But... but... that'd be perpetual motion. Though I don't see why it wouldn't work. It can't work! I don't see why not. Go to 1. :-)
The field does curve back on itself in the back but that can be taken care of by having a nonconductive cone on the back that prevents the fluid/air following the field back. New oncoming fluid/air would give an additional push.

Ah... after thinking how to build it I realized what the problem would be. It's the same thing that kills the electret-as-FE device. The positively charged end will attract negatively charged ions and free electrons from the surrounding air. They will turn the surface of the positive end to negative. This negative coaring will then attract positive ions and will become neutralized. Similarly for the negatively charged end. In a short time the whole thing will be neutralized. That's why energy needs to be expended in the form of a power supply/charge pump to maintain the respective polarities. Note that it also doesn't matter if the whole thing is well insulated.
Reality is sometimes malicious.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline Shanti

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2008, 08:28:50 AM »
 ???

I doesn't really get your point, what you tried to explain here. Why should an electret get neutralized?
You can place an electret in the air, and it will keep it's properties for a very long time...
Surely you mustn't put some metal on the surface if you take an electret!

I go with you together, that if you take air as a static fluid, this principle will not work. But I'm quite confident that it will work, due to the same reason, why also my little corona discharge device works.
The problem if you take the air as static, as soon as an air molecule becomes attracted to the most highest potential point on the egg (due to geometry the top has the highest potential), it will remain there and remain sticked there, so that other air molecules wouldn't have a chance anymore.
But here comes the FE principle, which also makes my device work: Temperature Movement!

The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells you, that if in a room all the air has the same temperature, it will never happen, that suddenly one corner gets hotter and the other colder, for then you could do work! But what do we know from molecular movement? Namely, that exactly this happens on a molecular level. If you would have a lot of molecules all at the same speed flying through the room, they will constantly bang and bash into oneanother, so the speed of the individual molecules will quite soon start to differ. Temperature indicates only the mean kinetic energy of the molecules. Single molecules can and will have a much higher energy.
And this is where FE sets in. If you let these high energy molecules do work for you, you can get energy out of it!
BTW: This is also exactly the same principle, how the WaterWheel (advertised on this site) works. The single water molecules will bang and bash into oneanother until suddenly one molecule at the surface gets enough kinetic energy to fly away (evaporate).
This will surely cool the medium, but as the environmental air will immediately balance this temperature drop, this is not really a problem.
BTW: You could also construct this WaterWheel so, that you don't had to refill it every now and then, if you would condense back the evaporated water, but surely then, efficiency would be lower, as the mean humidity would be higher and therefore the evaporation quotient smaller.

Back to the egg. Now the sticked air molecule at the highest potential point, would surely be hit after some time by an air molecule which is fast enough to do the work of transporting the molecule away from the highest potential point. To take away an air molecule out of the field, would surely need work, and this work is done by the kinetic energy of the air molecules. So the air will cool due to this.
But as I said before. You can't get much energy out of this. Namely also, because air doesn't have so much energy in it's kinetic movement.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2008, 08:28:50 AM »
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Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2008, 03:31:47 PM »
I doesn't really get your point, what you tried to explain here. Why should an electret get neutralized?
You can place an electret in the air, and it will keep it's properties for a very long time...
Surely you mustn't put some metal on the surface if you take an electret!

Yes, it will keep it's properties internally. But externally, one side of the electret is positive
and the other side is negative. Each side will attract oppositely charged molecules from
the air to the surface of the electret. As the first batch of negatively charged molecules
arrive at the positively charged side, the next batch will see a mix of positive and negative
and eventually, to the local air molecules, the electret's surfaces will look neutral. This
means you have no more external asymmetric electric field to make your egg work as
it's supposed to. Note that the surface material of the egg is irrelevant.

I go with you together, that if you take air as a static fluid, this principle will not work. But I'm quite confident that it will work, due to the same reason, why also my little corona discharge device works.
The problem if you take the air as static, as soon as an air molecule becomes attracted to the most highest potential point on the egg (due to geometry the top has the highest potential), it will remain there and remain sticked there, so that other air molecules wouldn't have a chance anymore.

It's not so much that they won't have a chance. It's that there will be no more net-positive
or net-negative electric field to attract them. But that's just the source of the problem. If we're
still talking about dielectrophoresus, it's the neutral air molecules that we want to
propel. But they need an asymmetric electric field. As described above, the positively
and negatively charged molecules will shortly destroy the asymmetric electric field
so we'll have nothing left to propel the neutral air molecules.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline triffid

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2008, 03:43:56 PM »
Be careful in saying lifters are worthless.The rocket was a toy for 2000 years before a madman called Hitler showed the world it's value.Hopefully the lifter will advance to a point where it can draw zeropoint energy.I had a friend who made one(a lifter). I didnot get to see it fly at the time of my visit.But I got to see the thrust it could generate.Later he got one to fly and took pictures and he sent me one(a picture).
Later he was depressed because he said it could not carry its own power supply.But I told him there
are lightweight hv power supplies and I found one in a pocket air ionizer from "sharper image" and sent the whole thing to him to show him there's hope.He gave it back to me on my next visit.But it shot out air too just like a lifter .The whole thing with batteries weighed about a pound.So there is hope!Triffid

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2008, 03:43:56 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2008, 03:39:57 PM »
No the  personal ionizer did not fly but it might have pushed a toy boat across a small pond.Triffid

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2008, 07:30:51 PM »
Lifter builders might be interested in looking at the DC-DC converters from EMCO High Voltage. I have an E101 that puts out 8-10 kV at 0.2 mA, from a 9v battery input. (actually the output is linear from 0-10kV based on input from 0.7-15 VDC). It weighs about 3 ounces.
http://www.emcohighvoltage.com/

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2008, 07:30:51 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2008, 07:04:56 PM »
You might even be able to use solar cells with something that small(3oz.).triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2008, 03:14:21 PM »
Don't forget that pocket tasers are now pushing 75,000 to a hundred thuosand volts from a 9 volt battery?Triffid

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2008, 03:14:21 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2008, 03:17:30 PM »
OkOk,100,000 volts!Sorry I mispelled thousand in the post above.Triffid

Offline Pseudoscience

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2008, 03:31:16 PM »
Lifters don't work in a vacuum, so they are not anti-gravity, they clearly need the "air" to work which makes them similar to ion engines.

Has anyone considered that lifters may work in a vacuum but actually need air in the gap between the wire and foil?

Has a test with this setup been tried at all?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2008, 03:31:16 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2008, 07:26:40 PM »
I think a valid lifter design could include a propellar as long as it could lift it's own power supply too.My friend thought including a propellar would be "cheating",But I think not since it could be all electric.And not have to carry any liquid fuel.Triffid

Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2008, 11:13:13 AM »
As far as I can see, the thrust of assymetrical capacitors is clearly not solely due to ion wind or pressure differentials caused by their shape. Naudins poynting flow thruster eliminates both these explanations, and provides 2770 RPM at 99 microamps.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/pftm2.htm

I made the same thing using 2 cans of kronenburg, the plastic container from a kinder surprise with a piece of foil glued inside.  Even at 10 KV, the motor spins vigourously, and there sure aint any wind pushing it round!  It has really been bothering me for months now WHAT force could be responsible for this, and as far as I can see, Naudins explanation seems the most promising. 

Does anyone have any other explanations for the force thats driving this motor????

id be very very interested to hear what others thought about this, especially those who have built the motor themselves.

So...

i dont reckon lifters are worthless, and i also think they'd work in space   ;)

Offline Light

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2008, 07:38:48 PM »
Yes, I’ve tried. It’s really amazing effect (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JXBpf7Yi7g); but as to  make a flying device it seem not very effective (less effective than lifter), or we need a different, unusual setup.


Offline flathunter

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2008, 09:01:47 PM »
Its nice to hear others have tried.  And so what do you think is the explanation of the force in Naudins E-motor?  Do you agree its some sort of Poynting energy flow?

Did you also try a design where all 3 electrodes are free to rotate, and not just the centre?  I tried it, and the others did start moving, but it was hard to tell whether this was just cos they brushed against the centre electrode.

Thanks!

 

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