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Author Topic: Lifters are worthless  (Read 50203 times)

Offline Yucca

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 02:17:19 PM »
I think asymetrical capacitors (lifters) may work just as welll in space as on the earth.

Naudins tests in NASA vacuum chamber (1.72 x 10^-6 Torr) showed thrust was generated, albeit much less thrust for a given potential accros the capacitor:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm
Quote
Conclusions  : This experiment is very interesting and shows definitely that a force is produced on asymmetrical capacitors when a High Voltage of +45KV is applied between their armatures in a High Vacuum ( 1.72 x 10^-6 Torr ).

One must remember that it's impossible to get an absolute vacuum anywhere in practice, even in deep space there is still atmosphere, just VERY rarified. A perfect vaccum is a theoretical asymptote, something that can never be achieved.

So to operate a lifter in deep space you need to raise the potential accross plates to much higher levels, but because the dialectric does not leak as much the power consumed will stay similar to a lower voltage lifter in a thicker atmosphere. Of course if you drop down into an atmosphere then you would have to reduce the potential to avoid arcover.

Note: the title of this thread "Lifters are worthless" puzzles me? Even if they didn't work in space would that make them worthless? A 747 doesn't work in space, is it worthless? Much can be learned by constructing a lifter, it is a great fun and fascinating entry point for enquiring minds into HV experimentation. So I postulate:

LIFTERS ARE INTERESTING!  ;D

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 02:17:19 PM »

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 02:29:07 PM »
Lifters may be worthless.

But they make great science projects for students.

But lets also think Coral Castle and what happened there?

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 03:33:10 PM »
Jes the same thing

only ONE wire is connected to lifter
the "conter-point" ist the surround ground (earth)
Pese

No, Pese. TWO wires are connected to lifter. I've done it that way and so has everyone else who has built one. Here's a drawing of a lifter:
 http://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter/lifter_advice.jpg
One wire + or -, is connected to the grey wire that's at the top of the brown posts. The other wire, - or +, is connected to the grey foil (the rectangular parts near the bottom of the post.) As TinselKoala said, one polarity arrangement works better than the other. That's likely due to difference in ionic mobility of positive versous negative ions in air as Jean-Louis Naudin points out here:
 http://jnaudin.free.fr/pcnpend/html/pcespend.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 03:33:10 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 04:20:45 PM »
What few people have considered is that earth has a potential gradient of 100 volts per meter, that is the potential rises at a rate of 100v/meter as you move upward through the atmosphere, it is also known that these potential gradients exist between planetary bodies. Therefore a capacitor with oppositely charged plates of a given potential and rate of change may want to balance itself within these potential gradients and could be considered in the same light as a "boyancy" effect. In this case the pressure imbalance between two points leading to motion would be an electrical pressure, what has not been mentioned is another aspect called "coulomb" forces---
"themagnitude of the electrostatic force between two point electric charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of each charge and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the charges."
but in this case the the force is not produced between the capacitor plates themselves---- but between the capacitor plates and the potential gradient the capacitor plates are immersed in---the potential gradient. The capacitor must rise for the same reason a balloon under water must rise---a pressure differential---boyancy.

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Offline Yucca

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 05:25:28 PM »
What few people have considered is that earth has a potential gradient of 100 volts per meter, that is the potential rises at a rate of 100v/meter as you move upward through the atmosphere, it is also known that these potential gradients exist between planetary bodies. Therefore a capacitor with oppositely charged plates of a given potential and rate of change may want to balance itself within these potential gradients and could be considered in the same light as a "boyancy" effect. In this case the pressure imbalance between two points leading to motion would be an electrical pressure, what has not been mentioned is another aspect called "coulomb" forces---
"themagnitude of the electrostatic force between two point electric charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of each charge and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the charges."
but in this case the the force is not produced between the capacitor plates themselves---- but between the capacitor plates and the potential gradient the capacitor plates are immersed in---the potential gradient. The capacitor must rise for the same reason a balloon under water must rise---a pressure differential---boyancy.


A good way of looking at the subject as a whole, and I agree an asymetric capacitor WILL rise/move between planets and also between systems and even galaxies.

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 05:25:28 PM »
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Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 06:15:00 PM »
@allcanadian,
Good ideas here but keep in mind that lifters also work when mounted to move sideways on a rotor:
 http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/wfrtlift.htm
It would also be a rough ride, especially near the ground where the gradient is very irregular and differs depending on the humidity. Maybe that's why some UFO videos show them bobbing around so much.

@pese,
While looking for the above rotor page I was also reminded of Saviour's completely ungrounded lifter test:
 http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/savrclft.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline eserf

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 06:19:33 PM »
you may be onto something there with the buoyancy thing.

I used to experiment with Lifters years ago quite a bit (still pull it out for the occasional dinner party conversation starter :D ).

I tried some experiments I saw on JLN's site, and they where very impressive (even if forces were small). They consisted of running the HV+ to a foil-covered shape (styrofoam) on a beam balance. Note: NO return or ground wire was used, and loss was minimal as the shapes were very rounded with no sharp/lossy edges... so we can say that no current was registered.

I tried a perfect sphere, applied ~28KV, and no matter the orientation, the balance did not move. I tried an EGG shape however, and the egg would "lose weight". Actually, it would want to move in the direction of the "top" of the egg. The effect is small, so the balance was necessary to see any effect.

If the egg was turned over, then the balance would move down. Upright egg, balance moves up. lay it on it's side, and nothing happens (although if I had something rotational, then it would have moved to the side!). I tried different attachment points for the HV lead to account for any leakage that could produce an Ion wind effect. Results were always the same.

It seemed to me that with ZERO ion wind, and possibly no current, just HV static charge, it behaved like a bubble. A perfect sphere of charge was balanced, while an egged shape was like "pulling" the "bubble" and it would move in the direction of the "pinch". The best that I can explain it at the moment.

Either way, it's something that I've always wanted to re-visit someday with better equipment, as it seems the "shape" of a HV charged surface has some interesting characteristics worth looking into. My thoughts led to the idea that perhaps there is a natural shape to the lifter cross section that is created that leads to a similar effect, but is held in tension through the dielectric (air).

thought: is it no wonder that a lifter doesn't work well in a vacuum when you've pumped out the dielectric!?

here is a link to the experiments I replicated. They worked perfectly  :)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lfpt/html/espv1.htm


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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 06:19:33 PM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 07:39:36 PM »
Quote
you may be onto something there with the buoyancy thing.

I agree! In this relation I can only recommend the teachings of Walter Russell.

About you tests: It is really a pity, that you didn't put your egg in a airtight container, so that one could be absolutely sure, that no corona discharge (ion wind) is the cause for the imbalance.

Quote
thought: is it no wonder that a lifter doesn't work well in a vacuum when you've pumped out the dielectric!?
??? Well vacuum is also a dieletric, actually all the dielectric constants are indicated relative to the dielectric value of the vacuum.

But sure I think, the lift one does see in all the lifters is surely almost only due to ion wind. As the expected lift due to the natural potential differences would be very small.

Offline eserf

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2008, 07:55:01 PM »
About you tests: It is really a pity, that you didn't put your egg in a airtight container, so that one could be absolutely sure, that no corona discharge (ion wind) is the cause for the imbalance.

Not a difficult thing to test. Just bought my first house, so I do plan on furthering the explorations now with a dedicated project room. The reason I attached the wire to different spots was to try to detect exactly that. Also, since leakage/discharge occurs at "points", then is it safe to assume that the egg should have moved AWAY from the "point" of the egg instead? I think so... but it didn't! I used an egg and not the same setup like JLN because I didn't like the bottom edges of his "egg on cylinder". Thought they were too sharp  ;D

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2008, 07:55:01 PM »
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Offline simonmagus

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2008, 08:05:09 PM »
I think asymetrical capacitors (lifters) may work just as welll in space as on the earth.

May work well?   ;)

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=uLtb8ph2WQQ


Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 08:06:25 PM »
@eserf,
There's also the possibility of the effect being due to dielectrophoresis, a smaller force than the ion wind types so it's usually hidden. But once you reduce or get rid of the ionization, then it takes effect, sometimes in the opposite direction. Dielectrophoresis uses a nonuniform electric field to more even neutral molecules. Your egg-shape would have had a nonuniform field whereas your sphere wouldn't have.
 http://oriharu.net/ufophysics/nonunielecfields.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 08:06:25 PM »
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Offline eserf

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2008, 08:27:08 PM »
Steven,

hmmm... now just to intensify the effect in the macro level to further amounts. One of my "next steps" I planned on doing was to first find the "best" shape... perhaps a bell, then build it as a layered capacitor so I could store VAST amount of charge... then unplug the thing and see if we could have nominal "weight loss" (quotes, since it's a directional manifestation) that would hold as long as the charge doesn't bleed off.

If nothing else, make a great physics toy where you could have a block, you flip a switch, and it "weighs" more or less depending on how it's oriented on a scale.  :)

boy, THAT would flip the guys out at the local Universities!  ;D

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2008, 08:59:39 PM »
If nothing else, make a great physics toy where you could have a block, you flip a switch, and it "weighs" more or less depending on how it's oriented on a scale.  :)

1. But... but... that'd be perpetual motion. Though I don't see why it wouldn't work. It can't work! I don't see why not. Go to 1. :-)
The field does curve back on itself in the back but that can be taken care of by having a nonconductive cone on the back that prevents the fluid/air following the field back. New oncoming fluid/air would give an additional push. Dunno. Musn't be dielectrophoresis then. Let us know how it works out.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2008, 10:47:06 PM »
I think it is more important to consider the properties inherent in the space surrounding your lifter in order to understand what qualities the lifter must possess ;). The earth has a potential gradient the same as the space between a pair of charged capacitor plates :o, it also has a magnetic field transverse to this potential gradient. In this sense we can say the earth has polarized fields present in the space surrounding it, one transverse to the other. As well the potential field gradient is in compression, that is radiations(light,infrared, microwave etc....) from outerspace have there frequency of oscillation (wave period) compressed in a changing electric field. Another aspect is the lifter potential field as it relates to the surrounding space, a large high potential field could be considered like a bubble in water whereby the bottom of the bubble is in a higher pressure zone than the top of the bubble--- the larger the bubble the greater the difference in pressure between the water at the top and the water at the bottom of the bubble. So it is easy to see that a large polarized field such as a lifters electric field would displace a larger portion of a potential gradient(potential difference from top to bottom of displaced field)than a small field, in this case we are speaking of the magnitude of the field thus the highest potential attainable should be utilized. We could consider the lifter as a capacitor within the capacitive field present around our planet.

Offline pese

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2008, 11:15:58 PM »
No, Pese. TWO wires are connected to lifter. I've done it that way and so has everyone else who has built one. Here's a drawing of a lifter:
 http://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter/lifter_advice.jpg
One wire + or -, is connected to the grey wire that's at the top of the brown posts. The other wire, - or +, is connected to the grey foil (the rectangular parts near the bottom of the post.) As TinselKoala said, one polarity arrangement works better than the other. That's likely due to difference in ionic mobility of positive versous negative ions in air as Jean-Louis Naudin points out here:
 http://jnaudin.free.fr/pcnpend/html/pcespend.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

OK,
if so. than its possible to lift the device himself.
(also to isolating the 2 wires against Kilovolts
will make problems.  So generate the Voltages on
the lifter.
If not so mutch Amperages (= Power) need, think
to use "electrostatic or piezo" Generators -
GP

 

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