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Author Topic: Lifters are worthless  (Read 48322 times)

Offline maxwellsdemon

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Lifters are worthless
« on: February 07, 2007, 10:51:40 PM »
Show me a lifter that can lift its own power supply.

The JLN site says they can lift their own weight plus a payload, which is not true- "their own weight" includes the stationary
part sitting on the table, which probably weighs hundreds of times what the delicate foil-and-balsa flying part weighs.

I don't think a self-contained version is even in the realm of plausibility. So I honestly can't see why people care about these things.

They are a terribly inefficient use of energy compared to, say, an electric helicopter.

They also are not "antigravity" of any sort, so they aren't even that interesting from a pure science POV.
They are kind of cool toys if you are bored and have access to a high voltage power supply. But that's the extent of it.

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Lifters are worthless
« on: February 07, 2007, 10:51:40 PM »

Offline acp

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2007, 10:26:46 AM »
Maxwell you devil.......  ;D

Offline huhh

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2007, 01:42:37 AM »
Quote
Show me a lifter that can lift its own power supply.

uhh OK.  Do I get a prize? hee hee. lol

http://jnaudin.free.fr/
There you go, a lifter lifting itself and it's power supply.
which i believe uses high powered batteries. Has pics and videos.

But yeah,
lifters are useless, and would obviously just be made for fun.
Unless you had a ka-trillion ka-zillion volts maybe you could even fly on it without electrocuting yourself to bad. lol

and yeah, lifters are Not anti-gravity... as I have seen on a tv show. which had borrowed an expensive gravity measuring machine, which didn't messure nothing at all when the lifter was right on it.

and lifters lift by Air Thrust, not anti-gravity.. as also on that tv show, they placed a lifter inside an air tight container, and without Air, it failed the lift-off. etc: it did not move at all..nothing..
So anti-gravity = No. The End.


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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2007, 01:42:37 AM »
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Offline CTG Labs

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 10:09:46 AM »
Lifters don't work in a vacuum, so they are not anti-gravity, they clearly need the "air" to work which makes them similar to ion engines.


D.

Offline Elvis Oswald

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2007, 09:05:26 PM »
Do you have a link to some evidence that they won't work in a vacuum? 
 :)

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2007, 09:05:26 PM »
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Offline johnyb

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 10:58:27 AM »
What value is the particular line of reasoning that completely eliminates the value of something because it does not demonstrate to be useful or practical at this time?

Have you considered that the Lifters being a confirmed proof of concept,  could possibly be useful to something later on in time. Have you considered the possibility that it might develop into something practical in some variation, or combination of other discoveries that may end up being also just proof of concepts on their own which did not get linked up to this, because the experimenter said it was impractical to use, and used their reason to dump it in the bin, and thus that particular reason killed what may have otherwise had a chance to become a practical use in form?
Of course there may be things that may not ever work, but if everyone were to give a reason for not doing, we would not have had any progress, inventions, or much change at all.

I do not  know if it is true or how accurate is the reference by many people to  Thomas Edison having tested 10,000 materials and knew of 10,000 materials that were not a good a good material material to make a light bulb light up.
 He could have  given himself a reason to not  continue. " its a waste of time, this 9,999th material does not light up, and i can not use it or any other material. These experiments are useless.".
Thankfully though, he had an attitude with each experiment  was one part of the end result. I do not think the accuracy or truth of that reference is that important, because it illustrates some value in that we have reasoned to be worthless or no point in the immediate time.  If he focused on this material and that material as being worthless, or there is no point, would you even be reading what you are reading right now?

Offline Yucca

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 11:15:22 AM »
Maybe Maxwellsdemon is wrong?

Maybe asymetrical capacitors (lifters) do work in a vacuum?:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm

Quote
The force applied on an asymmetrical capacitor is composed of two parts :

An eletrokinetics part produced by the ions kinetic momentum transfert and the attraction of the main armature by the ionic cloud generated by the wire. This effect occurs only at atmospherical pressure.
An electrogravitics part, this is the most interesting part, which can be observed only in High Vacuum conditions. This phenomenon, called the Biefeld-Brown effect, shows that it is possible to move an asymmetrical capacitor when it is energized with High Voltage. Although this force is weaker than the electrokinetics thrust in atmospherical pressure and although this thrust is not able to lift a standard Lifter placed in the earth gravity field, this experiment confirms a major phenomenon in the field of advanced propulsion because we have here a direct conversion of electricity into thrust...

It's interesting to think that in space, the dielectric (close to vacuum) will have negligible leakage thus to mantain the plate potential would require negligible current.

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 11:15:22 AM »
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Offline hypersoniq

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 11:47:35 AM »
I saw the same show (MythBusters).
Their foil lifter took off on the bench rather quickly when power was applied (think it was only 30,000 volts rather than the 45,000 volts in the NASA video of the one that works), failed to do so when put under a vacuum.

Offline pese

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 11:56:27 AM »
even if he take the power supply to the lifter
HE NEED an CONTERPOINT for the Powersupply to the EARTH.

on wire to earth is need to allow an static field between the both items
Pese

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 11:56:27 AM »
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Offline Paul-R

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 03:58:59 PM »
Do you have a link to some evidence that they won't work in a vacuum? 
 :)
Yes. NASA tested the technology in high vacuum:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm
Paul.

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 07:14:35 PM »
even if he take the power supply to the lifter
HE NEED an CONTERPOINT for the Powersupply to the EARTH.

on wire to earth is need to allow an static field between the both items

No connection to Earth is needed. All that's needed is a potential difference/voltage between the foil and the wire.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 07:14:35 PM »
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Offline pese

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2008, 09:38:57 AM »
i dont belive this, because this 2 potentionals are not moving the device.
it must connected at 2 different devices , so that can push or attrac ...
Pese

I see not one that have work with the static field that was working with
+ and - potentential at the saucer

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2008, 03:27:15 PM »
i dont belive this, because this 2 potentionals are not moving the device.
it must connected at 2 different devices , so that can push or attrac ...

I see not one that have work with the static field that was working with
+ and - potentential at the saucer

Are we talking about the same thing? The one on the following webpage has two connections, + and -. I know because I made it. The polarity can be connected either way and it still flys.
 http://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter1b/lifter1b.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 09:05:38 AM »
If you use pinking shears to serrate the bottom edge of the foil it will fly even better. (But it will draw a bit more current too--big surprise.)
At least mine did.
Like this:

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

And mine did seem to fly better on one polarity, but I can't remember whether it was wire-positive and foil-negative, or the other way around.

And I don't believe that a Biefeld-Brown effect has been reliably demonstrated in vacuum. I know of experiments that went as high as 160 kV that should have detected a B_B effect had it been there. They didn't, so the conclusion is that the supposed B-B effect is actually due to ion wind.

Offline pese

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Re: Lifters are worthless
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2008, 09:41:02 AM »
Are we talking about the same thing? The one on the following webpage has two connections, + and -. I know because I made it. The polarity can be connected either way and it still flys.
 http://rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter1b/lifter1b.htm
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Jes the same thing

only ONE wire is connected to lifter
the "conter-point" ist the surround ground (earth)
Pese

 

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