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Author Topic: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.  (Read 7475 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2023, 01:22:38 AM »
Hi Brad, from what I see, I agree that running it your way indeed is more efficient than the conventional way.
You sure that the voltage drop at 2amp is not caused by the 2 amp max control on your power supply? And that you did not had the 2amp max set on the 'without magnet' run? Just wondering.
Do you have a cap on the flyback capture circuit? What is clamping its voltage?
Kind regards,
Steven

Power supply was wound up to 5amps.
I also have a high current 63v 10,000uF cap on the input side of the motor, before the cvr.
The flyback is being sent to a rather flat 18650 cell.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2023, 01:31:45 AM »
Hi,
I am not sure what is the radius of this rotor but if you could check the NewtonOmeter (grams of pull x radius) value and then estimate at what rotational speed this pulse still has its kick power (about 10Hz maybe?).
So power should be (rotational speed) x (grams pull x radius) = (mech power)
(400 rpm) x (300g x 5cm) = mech power rotor. (Just an example of calculation idea)
Question is what would be pulse duration of 2A@10V ?

Not sure how you could achieve this with a pulse motor, as the grams of pull force is not a constant.
The pull force would have to be averaged over the degrees of measurements taken, then in my case times 4, as i have 4 torque plates.
The running pull force would be less than the static tests carried out.


Brad

Offline Thaelin

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2023, 10:47:59 AM »
  This is not really about the motor per se, but I tried to use a group of 18650's to capture the flyback and had a fire. Damn glad I had a pan close to dump it in and get outside so it could finish. For safety, use a resistor or such. Hate to see you go my route.
   About the motor, seems that a fair weight rotor and at least 4 plates is needed to run fair. Did a small test with a cutoff wheel and one plate between a 1/2" mag and a coil of 200 turns on a soft bolt with the head cut off. Not as hard to remove as I thought it would be. Sooooooo, Guess I need to break out the old cutting boards with setups for 1/2" shaft and make a rotor to get setup with.  The chase is on.
thay

Offline tinman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2023, 02:28:37 PM »
  This is not really about the motor per se, but I tried to use a group of 18650's to capture the flyback and had a fire. Damn glad I had a pan close to dump it in and get outside so it could finish. For safety, use a resistor or such. Hate to see you go my route.
   About the motor, seems that a fair weight rotor and at least 4 plates is needed to run fair. Did a small test with a cutoff wheel and one plate between a 1/2" mag and a coil of 200 turns on a soft bolt with the head cut off. Not as hard to remove as I thought it would be. Sooooooo, Guess I need to break out the old cutting boards with setups for 1/2" shaft and make a rotor to get setup with.  The chase is on.
thay

I would say you over charged the battery.
Any higher than 4.4 volts for an 18650 cell, and smoke will come.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2023, 10:38:06 AM »
Did some simulations on the effect of torque plate thicknesses relative to the magnet.
The Plate is just above the gate in this test.
In all the test the gaps between magnet and plate is the same. The colors don't matter, the important value is the Newton on the Y-component. This is the pull force on the plate. There is an optimal plate thickness and it does matter quite a bit it seems.

Offline Nali2001

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2023, 10:41:28 AM »
Second test but now the plate is more in the gate.

Now the plate needs to be thicker to reach optimal torque it seems. Which is obviously not possible so some tradeoff need to be found. All in all it seems the plate can be thicker than what I saw in the videos.


Offline tinman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2023, 01:18:51 PM »
Quote
author=Nali2001 link=topic=19546.msg582042#msg582042 date=1693989486

Quote
Did some simulations on the effect of torque plate thicknesses relative to the magnet.
The Plate is just above the gate in this test.
In all the test the gaps between magnet and plate is the same. The colors don't matter, the important value is the Newton on the Y-component. This is the pull force on the plate.



Quote
There is an optimal plate thickness and it does matter quite a bit it seems.

I am not a fan of simulators, but it seems to agree with exactly what i said in the videos.
I have been perfecting this motor for that past 3 years, and yes, plate thickness, plate width, gap, and magnet/coil relationship all play a big part in performance.

Can you use the sim to test at different distances - torque plate to gate distances, and then the same using a coil attracting a magnet, such as i did in my pull force comparison test. Would be good to see the results of the simulated test, say from 20mm away as a starting point, to say 2mm away from the PM/coil, at say 2mm increments.

Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2023, 01:26:52 PM »
Quote
author=Nali2001 link=topic=19546.msg582043#msg582043 date=1693989688

Quote
Second test but now the plate is more in the gate.
Now the plate needs to be thicker to reach optimal torque it seems. Which is obviously not possible so some tradeoff need to be found.


This depends on what type of flywheel you use.
The reason you need a thicker plate in the gate, is because a thinner plate will become saturated with the magnetic field-also mentioned in the videos. If you run your sim again, but have a large mass of steel to replicate the large steel flywheel, you will see that you can reduce the thickness of the torque plate.



Quote
All in all it seems the plate can be thicker than what I saw in the videos.

It can be, but then you end up with the PM and coil gap becoming larger, reducing the combined field concentration.
Add the large mass of steel to imitate the flywheel, and you will see you can reduce the thickness of the torque plates, and achieve the same pull force.

Brad

Offline wopwops

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2023, 06:43:36 PM »
Will you release videos and plans of the "working" motor? Thank you.

Offline tinman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2023, 08:29:02 AM »
Will you release videos and plans of the "working" motor? Thank you.

These are the build plans.
My shop built prototype is very much the same, only the flywheel and torque plates are all one piece, and lay horizontal.

Offline wopwops

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2023, 09:11:21 AM »
I deleted this post. I didn't intend to upset people. Take care.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 06:26:49 PM by wopwops »

Offline Cadman

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2023, 02:47:44 PM »
Maybe it was explained somewhere that I missed, but is there a reason why you don't show the working machine and the plans for it? If you want people to replicate it, wouldn't releasing videos and exact plans bring in a lot of people who are otherwise on the sidelines? ...

Tinman has already given away enough information to build one. Even better, his video tutorials explain why it works and how to tune it up.
Knowing that, building a bigger more powerful one is possible.

Anything else he cares to share will be icing on the cake.

PS
Hardly any interest in this? Really? Over 4,000 views on this topic in 8 days says otherwise.



Offline ramset

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2023, 03:50:28 PM »
So before i get this thread up and running, are there actually any builders still on this forum ?

Is there anyone that would like to build a pulse motor like no other ?-the way a pulse motor should be built, meaning-very unconventional.

My claim--
I will show you how to build the test bed, which will become the motor it self.
I will show you how to !at the very least! double the torque of your pulse motor, without using any more power to do so.

I will also provide all the up to date stl files for those with 3D printers. ( 3D printer not needed if you don't have one)

No claims will be made here by me.
You build the motor, and you disclose the outcome.

This motor is open source, but the design remains mine.

What i will say about this !pulse motor!, is that it will use less power than any other pulse motor out there, for a given amount of torque.
You could say that this motor is !very! efficient.

Let me know if you are interested in building this !pulse! motor, and we will get the ball rolling.

Brad


WopWops
Critiques from anonymous members?
Very odd post indeed?
Especially given the FIRST POST introduction above ?( Brads rules)
As far as views ?( for this forum it’s very high )


Here with viewer skill set ..there are all the views one could ask for ,by persons like Cadman and many others ,
Who have built and shared their work,
  still sending out invitations to those who shared years back,
Like Slayer ,laser saber, scientists,engineers etc etc


Nothing but gratitude !
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
I remember reading a comment years ago
If you want to change the world
“BE” that change !


Tinman surely tries..( please remove this post ( mine)
@
Wopwops Please try not to be the “monkey wrench”
People are actually working here ( just getting started !



Offline Nali2001

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2023, 07:34:37 PM »
Hi Brad just wanted to run this by you first:

Turns out that it is a bit hard to find a steel rotor 20cm+
I do have a 30x40x 1cm thick plate I can machine to a 30cm circle, but it is aluminum. I can add some steel mass to the center to enhance the weight if needed. So is aluminum ok by you or do you have a theory that is needs to be steel?

Offline citfta

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Re: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong.
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2023, 08:30:28 PM »
The easiest way to get a decent flywheel is to find an old single cylinder air compressor.  Take the drive pulley/flywheel off and drill a hole in the center to match some precision skate board bearings.  You can probably find one of the old air compressors at a scrap yard or pawn shop.  I have attached a picture of mine without the coils or magnets so you can see it better.  I used a bicycle axle for my mounting axle.  It fit the center of the skate board bearings perfectly.  Mine runs perfectly true with no run-out or wobble.