Author Topic: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong. (Read 7441 times)

tinman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2023, 07:13:09 AM »

Quote from: nightlife on August 31, 2023, 05:29:09 AM

Thanks for that video link. I have searched for years for someone that has done this. Not quite the same as I had in mind but results are close to what I expected. I see it has doubled the torque but it does not show that input power required has doubled using both poles opposed to one. To me, it's looks much more efficient using both rather then just one.
Another thing I noticed is that he is not switching the poles of the coil when the different poles of the magnets pass which would cause a resistance requiring more power. Over time, the core would become a magnet depending on what material is used as a core.
My idea was either a horseshoe style or 2 rims both lined with magnets rotating around a coil placed between the rotating rims. Other ideas included different shapes of magnets.
Regardless, that video proves most of what I stated to be true and I am betting that a better design would prove everything else I have said is true.
I can't afford the time it takes to build anything right now. I seriously don't have the time. I keep hoping that someone else would do it so I can quit thinking about it.
It just doesn't make sense to not use both poles of magnets or both poles of a electro magnet field.

That video is my video, and that is the motor i built.
I can tell you now that around 3 times the power was needed to that of a single sided pulse motor.
You may think you would only need the same amount of power, and get double the torque, but it does not work that way.
You introduce much more eddy current loss. You also need twice the force to remove both magnets from the core, instead of just the one magnet. In fact, i cannot think of any electric motor that uses both sides of the coil. One side normally sits against the steel housing of the motor, and loops back around to the opposite pole.

tinman · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2023, 07:16:42 AM »

Quote from: nightlife on August 31, 2023, 05:47:18 AM

Measure the pull and energy used with one pole side Then measure the same with both poles used. I bet both pulls will be equal or close to it and energy used would not double and would be close to equal if not equal.
Both poles of a magnetic field are always equal. One can never be stronger or weaker then the other.

Been there, and done that.
What you are forgetting, is that it will take twice the pull to pull 2 magnets away from the core, instead of just one magnet.

You can have a magnet with say the north pole small and compressed, which results in a very strong field, while the south pole is spread out and weak.

nightlife · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2023, 08:22:26 AM »

With a iron core I can see that being a issue but not with a air coil.

The field is exactly the same strength regardless of how it is manipulated. The compressed is mathematically equal to the spread out field. Compressing both at equal measurements equals equal strengths between both measurements.
Now think what would happen if his design used 1 or more pairs of half moon magnets. Then powered the coil before field contact, then shut off before center and then powered back on but with switched polarities and so on. The trigger would require 2 magnets per half moon. On then off between and back on with reversed polarity then off until the next and polarities switching with each trigger magnet. This concept is using his design but just modified.
I have others in mind but his design modified as stated would pretty much have the same results as any other using this concept.
If using a style north of south pole, the trigger would need to power before magnet and shut off before center if it's set up as attraction or powered after center if set up to repel. This design would require a horseshoe coil using one rim fitted with magnets or a coil between 2 rims lined with magnets like said before.

tinman · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2023, 10:12:16 AM »

Quote

author=nightlife link=topic=19546.msg581812#msg581812 date=1693462946

Perhaps you don't know me ?
You keep referring to !him!, and i keep telling you that !him! is me- i'm the one in the video.
I have been designing and building pulse motors for the last 20 years, and have probably built and tested any design you could come up with.

Quote

Now think what would happen if his design used 1 or more pairs of half moon magnets. Then powered the coil before field contact, then shut off before center and then powered back on but with switched polarities and so on.

You just described a standard PM brushed DC motor, which works exactly like that.

Quote

The trigger would require 2 magnets per half moon. On then off between and back on with reversed polarity then off until the next and polarities switching with each trigger magnet. This concept is using his design but just modified

No, you just use an NPN and PNP half bridge setup, which uses the standard pulse motor setup-1 magnet for the trigger coil.

Anyway, this is off topic some what.
Here in this thread, we will be building something different to any other pulse motor, which has useful torque, but uses the same amount of power as a standard pulse motor would using the same coils and magnets.

Feel free to jump on board, and build if you like.

Brad.

Thaelin · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2023, 10:12:25 AM »

Also be mindful of the moment of inertia against the size and weight of the rotor(s) too. There is a sweet spot
thay

nightlife · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2023, 10:35:26 AM »

I am sorry, I didn't realize that was your video.I had not seen it before. Nor did I realize that this thread is about a different type of pulse motor.
However, it does not take away from what I have stated and I would like to see your build modified. Maybe we can start a new thread to talk more about it or thru a pm. I will not discuss this any longer on this thread. Sorry for jumping in.

MagnaProp · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2023, 12:11:27 PM »

Quote from: tinman on August 30, 2023, 06:55:41 PM

...Is there anyone that would like to build a pulse motor like no other ?-the way a pulse motor should be built, meaning-very unconventional....

Hi tinman. I'm very interested in your design and in building one. I watched the two videos you posted and it looks great to say the least. Looks like you are getting twice to three times the output torque and you aren't even yet using the recycled power from the collapsing electromagnet yet which you explain has unique things going on in your setup.

Only major issue with me joining the build is that I'm a super newb to say the least at what you are doing. I've only built some RC airplanes, used a scope over 10 years ago to read RC channels and that's about it. Never built a pulse motor or used transistors before. So unfortunately I would have a lot of newb questions if I joined the build which may pollute your thread. If you think it's best I sit this one out, that's ok as I hope to learn from what takes place in your build thread.

Here's an example of how newb my questions would be. I've never had an adjustable DC power source for doing this type of work so would the attached image work? It's 30V 10A for 64$. Amazon also has one that is 20A but it's 200$ which I could get if needed. Trying to keep costs down below 1k for this build if possible, until I get another job.

tinman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2023, 01:25:52 PM »

Quote from: MagnaProp on August 31, 2023, 12:11:27 PM

Hi tinman. I'm very interested in your design and in building one. I watched the two videos you posted and it looks great to say the least. Looks like you are getting twice to three times the output torque and you aren't even yet using the recycled power from the collapsing electromagnet yet which you explain has unique things going on in your setup.

Only major issue with me joining the build is that I'm a super newb to say the least at what you are doing. I've only built some RC airplanes, used a scope over 10 years ago to read RC channels and that's about it. Never built a pulse motor or used transistors before. So unfortunately I would have a lot of newb questions if I joined the build which may pollute your thread. If you think it's best I sit this one out, that's ok as I hope to learn from what takes place in your build thread.

Here's an example of how newb my questions would be. I've never had an adjustable DC power source for doing this type of work so would the attached image work? It's 30V 10A for 64$. Amazon also has one that is 20A but it's 200$ which I could get if needed. Trying to keep costs down below 1k for this build if possible, until I get another job.

Hi MagnaProp.

First up, that is a great power supply for the price, and would suit your needs.
I have one that is only 5amps max output, and it has done me over the years.
We are working with quite small amounts of power with these pulse motors.

Second-- There is no problem at all with you joining in on the build, as there are many people that can help you out along the way.
When i started 20 odd years ago, i didn't even know what a transistor was lol.

Third--you are not going to need any where near 1k for this build.
I would be surprised if you used more than $50.00, as most of the stuff can be had from scrap.

So yes, please join in, and learn as we go.

tinman · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2023, 04:21:53 PM »

Here is an earlier video of the first test rig.

The later model we will be building is far les complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQtJTodw3QQ

floodrod · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2023, 05:20:37 PM »

3d printer is cooking away.. Printing out the torque plate holders now. Using what I got on hand..

Don't think I can bend the torque plate metal with my skills.

Tinman- do you think the torque plates could be made with iron powder and epoxy in a 3d printed mold? so they can be meticulously designed to be rounded and sized exactly with the curvature of the rotor ? And maybe cut down on those darn eddys.

I don't want to deviate too far away from your original design- so I wanted to ask also about torque plate width in respect to magnet face width and curvature.

Thanks

ramset · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2023, 08:51:16 PM »

Just a note to Tinman ( I see it’s almost 3 AM in OZ as I type)
Stefan is sorting an admin issue ATM
Hopefully this board will be set by the time the sun rises in OZ
Please remove this message once it’s set up

With gratitude
Chet

tinman · « **Reply #26 on:** September 01, 2023, 01:29:39 AM »

Quote from: floodrod on August 31, 2023, 05:20:37 PM

3d printer is cooking away.. Printing out the torque plate holders now. Using what I got on hand..

Don't think I can bend the torque plate metal with my skills.

Tinman- do you think the torque plates could be made with iron powder and epoxy in a 3d printed mold? so they can be meticulously designed to be rounded and sized exactly with the curvature of the rotor ? And maybe cut down on those darn eddys.

I don't want to deviate too far away from your original design- so I wanted to ask also about torque plate width in respect to magnet face width and curvature.

Thanks

Floodrod.

I don't think your printed flywheel will do the job.
You need a good solid steel flywheel, as there will be quite a bit of force on the torque plates.
You could give it a try, but you will need a larger gap between the magnet and torque plates, and between the coil and torque plates.

Regarding your torque plates and magnets.
This is the very reason i stated in the first post that you will need to set up a test bed, so as you can work out which width and thickness best suits your magnets.

I will be doing videos as we go, to show you how to do all this.
The testing of different torque plates will take you some time, but it needs to be done to achieve the best results.

Added- how are those magnets orientated ?
They need to be north one end, and south the other.
I believe those ones you have are probably magnetised on each long face, which will make them far to large for what you need.
Do you have any 10-15mm round cylinder magnets ?

Brad

floodrod · « **Reply #27 on:** September 01, 2023, 02:12:36 AM »

Thanks Brad. The magnets are North / South on the ends. And a test bed will be built and used. Just starting with what I have on-hand to get some data and a feel for they system. Then I can test, replace, tweak, change, and optimize.

tinman · « **Reply #28 on:** September 01, 2023, 02:28:34 AM »

Quote from: floodrod on September 01, 2023, 02:12:36 AM

Thanks Brad. The magnets are North / South on the ends. And a test bed will be built and used. Just starting with what I have on-hand to get some data and a feel for they system. Then I can test, replace, tweak, change, and optimize.

Ah, the magnets will be ok then.
The plastic flywheel may be ok as a test bed setup, so as you can get a feel of how this motor works.
Those two angled plates you have will work in the test bed setup.
You can use just about any metal for the torque plates.
I just use mild steel, from say like steel tube/pipe.
You just cut long strips out of the pipe, and hammer flat until the curve suits your flywheel.

floodrod · « **Reply #29 on:** September 01, 2023, 02:49:09 AM »

Ok thanks.

I get these 3d printed rotors moving 3500 RPM with 4 of those 50mm magnets on it. They are heavy infill and pretty thick.

If I got to replace it, I will. But it makes easy testing because I can swap out torque plate brackets easily.

here it is with those bars cut / mounted / and spinning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9tGzauVRg

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Author Topic: Pulse Motors- Your building them wrong. (Read 7441 times)

tinman

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tinman

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nightlife

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tinman

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Thaelin

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nightlife

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MagnaProp

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tinman

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tinman

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floodrod

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ramset

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tinman

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floodrod

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tinman

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floodrod

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