Author Topic: The argument for pepetual motion (Read 4218 times)

lancaIV · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2023, 11:00:11 AM »

Hello,
' A permanent magnet is a product made of magnetically hard material with high "residual" magnetic induction that retains its state of magnetization for a long time. '

Condition :
Temperature( ambiental temperature=giga-oscillatons) dependent !
Barkhausen effect : common 'residual' magnetic force lining lost ! PM new ordered orientation programming !
Chaotic to lined to : let the PM falling : re-chaotic

grain domain orientation to compressed grains=block,cube,...magnetic force orientation

How many Weiss-Domains per qmm ? Material -specific density and self-/Eigen-frequency- dependence !?

Sincerely
OCWL

lancaIV · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2023, 11:38:33 AM »

Quote from: ramset on July 13, 2023, 04:58:26 PM

Over 3 billion people have no access to clean water
Or a light switch (cars etc etc?)

1st things 1st
Or we appear as callous sadists , who sentence the less fortunate to poverty and despair!

FE
Those who fear it and hide it are the number one issue !

Hello ramset,
local ,where these 3 000 000 000 habitants are living,in work :

the grands,parents,sons/daughters, families(m./f. side) by first responsibility !

their own estate social helper/server,non/profit orientation

U.N.O. its several sectorial serving organisations : W.H.O.,U.N.E.S.C.O,F.A.O.,U.N.H.C.R.,.....

Churches missionaries,non-profit NGO's,Red Cross/Johanniter/.....
They are not alone and do not depend from overunity.com its forum !

Ultra-? low-cost ,100% human to 100% full-automated problem resolving

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tqVIb4cls

37 cents divided 100 liters multiplied 2,5/per capita and day :

1 cent per day costs for clean water where a ' contaminated/dirty(grey-)water source' is available

This are 0,5% for a habitant from the ' 2$/day income/capita'-society

Let us assume Labuntogs year 2002 P26/cbm now -2023-pricely near P100/cbm

so we get 200 $cents/1000 liters x 2,5 liters = 0,5 $cent per day and 2,5 liters drink water need

0,25 % from 2$/day and capita income
Who is/should be concerned about this condition ?

Thousands of peoples works hourly for a 'Better World' ,there are monthly estatal/international expositions/conferences about the 'clean water serving'-sector

Competitions,challenges,....... with Prizes/Awards
World-EXPO all 4th year
Eco-Villages world-wide with lowest material use and/or re-use project

But later,after water,there is the land for food question(and land watering,natural/artificial),the housing,the mobility,health service,......
Basic to 'Luxus' hous-/e/ing life/living condition

Sleeping-/working-/living -room,bath-room,kitchen = T0 + separated living-room } total now T1+ extra/separated child-/s-room } total T2 + separated work-room } T2+1

One capita needs 2,5 liters per day water
We can get food with up to 27 000 liters/Kg in production process water input

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.analyticjournal.de/firmen-pdfs-bilder-etc/yumda/Warenvergleich-Juni%25202018/pi-04-2018-wasserverbrauch-lebensmittel.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiOhsyLuZCAAxUkUaQEHaUuAf0QFnoECAgQAg&usg=AOvVaw29SyHtn1FVffhE3Zal6i8V

1 Kg meat = ≥ 15 000 liters water per Kg ( 27 000 liters /1 Kg cacao beans)

Quantitative more costly than this 0,25-0,5 % !

Sincerely
OCWL

p.s.: population density and water/-ing

Some years before was observed an Earth inclination change,

caused by Pacistan their artificial agrar fields watering

p.s.II : https://ourworldindata.org/region-population-2100
meat consume/capita 2023 and ? 2100
15 000 liters/Kg ~ divided 2,5 lt/capita = 6 000 habitants daily water demand resolved

1 Kg T-bone steak dirty secret !
1 Kg Fast Food Industry dirty daylife !

rakarskiy · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2023, 03:51:52 PM »

Quote from: lancaIV on July 15, 2023, 11:00:11 AM

Hello,
' A permanent magnet is a product made of magnetically hard material with high "residual" magnetic induction that retains its state of magnetization for a long time. '

Condition :
Temperature( ambiental temperature=giga-oscillatons) dependent !
Barkhausen effect : common 'residual' magnetic force lining lost ! PM new ordered orientation programming !
Chaotic to lined to : let the PM falling : re-chaotic

grain domain orientation to compressed grains=block,cube,...magnetic force orientation

How many Weiss-Domains per qmm ? Material -specific density and self-/Eigen-frequency- dependence !?

Sincerely
OCWL

Any generator has its own operating parameters. The magnetic field of a permanent magnet is not spent to do work. It is just that under certain conditions the magnet may lose its ability to generate the field. It is likely that if there is accumulation, there must be storage. An inductance coil does not store the magnetic field, it generates it.

Quote

Domain - a macroscopic region in a magnetic crystal in which the orientation of the vector of spontaneous homogeneous magnetization or the vector of antiferromagnetism (at temperatures below the Curie or Neel point, respectively) is rotated or shifted in a certain - strictly ordered - way, i.e. polarized relative to the directions of the corresponding vector in neighboring domains.

Domains are formations consisting of a huge number of [ordered] atoms and sometimes visible to the naked eye (sizes of the order of 10-2 cm3).
Domains exist in ferro- and antiferromagnetic, segnetoelectric crystals and other substances possessing spontaneous long-range order.

onepower · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2023, 04:46:44 PM »

rakarskiy

Quote

Okay, then how do we define the "magnetic field energy" of a permanent magnet?

A permanent magnet is a product made of magnetically hard material with high "residual" magnetic induction that retains its state of magnetization for a long time. Permanent magnets are made in various shapes and are used as autonomous (non-energy consuming) sources of magnetic field.

(I like this definition most of all, with the only clarification, not residual magnetization, but a running process of generation of magnetic flux. which tends to close in the Anapole state).

Personally, I don't like those kinds of definitions because it gives no meaningful information and sounds superficial. Note, the supposed definition doesn't even tell us what a magnet is, lol.

My definition would be...
A permanent magnet is a material in which some of the electron spins have been permanently aligned in one direction. The charge of the electron moving in a circle produces a magnetic field at right angles to the path of the charge. Since the path of the electron charge is locked in place so is the magnetic field producing a permanent magnetic field. In theory, any material could become a permanent magnet so long as the electron spins could locked in place and the individual magnetic fields coordinated to act in one direction.

Do you see how that works?, I didn't give a near meaningless superficial description which sounds like a 6 year old. I described how the magnetic field was produced and why it is considered permanent. I then gave some context explaining why any material could become a permanent magnet.

If were going to answer a question then we have to give a coherent answer. Versus the near meaningless psycho-babble littered with complex terms we generally see which doesn't explain anything.

AC

lancaIV · « **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2023, 04:52:02 PM »

Collage from ideas :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=5&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19820715&CC=DE&NR=3048277A1&KC=A1#

https://www.google.com/search?q=magnetic+memory+effect&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m

What is about switchable non/permanent magnetism ?
And/or (easier) coil-wrapped PM ,like showed by Flynn brothers

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19951031&CC=US&NR=5463263A&KC=A#

and here as ' closed em/pm magnetic circuit'
https://tesla3.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/zpe_hilden_brand_valve.gif

PM can not storage ?
Polygeometrical : yes ,it can !
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=24&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19910409&CC=US&NR=5006672A&KC=A#

The industrial permanent magnet in change :
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/neodymium-more-like-neo-dont-mium-new-magnet-uses-fewer-key-rare-earths/

https://www.emobility-engineering.com/clean-earth-iron-nitride-magnets/
The neodymium used in the most popular rare earth magnets (NdFeB, for example) costs about $120 per kilo, while the iron and nitrogen used in Niron magnets are tens of cents per kilo.

2035 ,open source

Iron,Nitrogen Aluminium as coil material ,

later wrapped/evacuated Sodium/Natrium as electric conductor ,

PM in array configuration , double -ccw/cw - winding

2035 electric drive average gross selling market price : ≤ 10 €/Kg e-/pm rotative drive
Here,all the above material applyable,

permanent input

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=11&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20070201&CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1#

permanent output ?

C.O.P. ≤ or ≥ 1

Compared : as cascading magnet circuit modul and conversion modul array

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=30&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20030110&CC=JP&NR=2003009558A&KC=A#
Description :
[0017] translated :

Therefore, by designing a specific magnetic path based on the AC power source to be used, its frequency, and the desired output power, it is possible to obtain an output power several times to several tens of times greater than the input power.

wmbr
OC

p.s.: in today anti-matter disclosed science ( or not) relative to electron spin the positron spin

https://www.google.com/search?q=positron+spin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m

onepower · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2023, 05:05:19 PM »

As well, a real definition which actually describes the thing it's supposed to opens up other concepts...

Quote

My definition would be...
A permanent magnet is a material in which some of the electron spins have been permanently aligned in one direction. The charge of the electron moving in a circle produces a magnetic field at right angles to the path of the charge. Since the path of the electron charge is locked in place so is the magnetic field producing a permanent magnetic field. In theory, any material could become a permanent magnet so long as the electron spins could locked in place and the individual magnetic fields coordinated to act in one direction.

In this definition we can see that the only requirement to produce a magnetic field is that some charges move. A coil uses an electron current to move some charge in a circle while a permanent magnet locks the electron spins in place to move charge in a circle. If fact there is no real difference between a superconductor coil and a permanent magnet. Both reduce the resistance of the moving electrons so the magnetic field supposedly becomes permanent.

Here's a thought, why does everyone have a meltdown when I say "perpetual motion" but they think nothing of calling a magnet "permanent"?. In fact, perpetual and permanent mean the same thing so why all the drama?. Why do they have two different sets of rules for how they define something?. Maybe we should start calling FE devices "Permanent motion machines" which nobody seems to have a problem with. This is why it's important to look past all the false beliefs, false narratives and biases.

So we need to be clear the only requirement to produce a magnetic field is a moving charge usually attached to a charge carrier like a Proton or Electron. This is a First Principal which supersedes all other effects or concepts. Moving charges producing magnetic fields is the foundation on which everything else is built.

AC

stivep · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2023, 06:53:23 PM »

There are speculations and there is science standing point based on models.
Forum forced policy doesn't reflect stated above.
When drifting to the left or right is done on the same highway of the one way road ,you still are going to arrive
at the same destination point my friends.
Unless you build the new cross section and new desired destination.
Little of the new light was posted here:
https://overunity.com/18188/iec-earth-engine-first-magnet-motor-installed-in-las-vegas/msg580323/#msg580323
However it doesn't go against physics models -it only introduces new not available yet till now way to deal with magnetism
although I was researching it for quite few years .
Wesley

kolbacict · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2023, 08:14:30 PM »

Quote from: onepower on July 18, 2023, 05:05:19 PM

In this definition we can see that the only requirement to produce a magnetic field is that some charges move. A coil uses an electron current to move some charge in a circle while a permanent magnet locks the electron spins in place to move charge in a circle. If fact there is no real difference between a superconductor coil and a permanent magnet. Both reduce the resistance of the moving electrons so the magnetic field supposedly becomes permanent.

Therefore, the permanent magnet is the key to understanding and the creation of high-temperature superconductors ?

stivep · « **Reply #23 on:** July 19, 2023, 01:28:54 AM »

#1

Quote from: onepower on July 18, 2023, 05:05:19 PM

A coil uses an electron current to move some charge in a circle while a permanent magnet locks the electron spins in place to move charge in a circle.

Partial answer:
Magnetic Field: _{is the region around a magnetic material or a moving
electric charge within which the force of magnetism acts.}
Magnetic force: _{is the attractive or repulsive force that is exerted between the poles
of a magnet and electrically charged moving particles}.
Electric force: _{is the interaction of either attractive force or repulsive force between two charged bodies}.
Charged particle:_{is e.g. an atomic particle with a positive or negative charge, - as an electron, or an ion,
such as a molecule or atom with a surplus or deficit of electrons. Charged particles emit electromagnetic radiation
when they are accelerated. Electrons have low mass and experience greater accelerations than heavier particles.}

Difference between forces:
Electric forces _{are the forces that occur due to electric charges whereas} magnetic forces _{are the forces that occur due to magnetic dipoles.}
_{magnetic dipole},_{is generally a tiny magnet of microscopic to subatomic dimensions, equivalent to a flow of electric charge around a loop.}
_{When a} charged particle _{moves perpendicular to a} magnetic field,_{it experiences a force that causes it to travel in a} circular path

So your statement should sound:
Reg #1: Magnetic field (in coil and in permanent magnet) only affects moving charge if that charge is moving perpendicular to a magnetic field.
________________________________________________________
_{second part of}Partial answer:
#2

Quote from: onepower on July 18, 2023, 05:05:19 PM

If fact there is no real difference between a superconductor coil and a permanent magnet.
Both reduce the resistance of the moving electrons so the magnetic field supposedly becomes permanent.
AC

A superconductor:_{is a substance/material that conducts electricity without resistance when it becomes colder than a "critical temperature.}Superconductivity:_{is the flow of charged particles through a material without}resistance_{... (zero resistance)}
_{The magnetic field is excluded from the superconductor,} _{causing it to levitate and providing a perfect magnetic shield. (internal or external, due to the Meissner effect,)
But if we fix-position of superconductor than magnet on the top of it will levitate.}

Quote

One of the fundamental properties of a superconductor is that it "hates" magnetic fields.
If a scientist applies a magnetic field, the superconductor creates its own equal and opposite magnetic field.

https://www.anl.gov/article/the-magnetismand-mysteryof-superconductors
_{Mica is high temperature superconducting material (} _{above 77 K (−196.2 °C; −321.1 °F)} _{but brakes when bend ( flakes off in pieces when scratched with a fingernail.)
so thin film with deposited mica is used for superconducting coils. (metal foil and mica are the most used "flexible" substrates})

So your statement should sound:
Reg #2:
superconductor "hates" magnetic fields and when temperature changes to higher it stops being one.
it is the flow of charged particles through a material without resistance.
But magnetic field from both the magnet and superconductor deflects charged particles, in the same manner.
Wesley

stivep · « **Reply #24 on:** July 19, 2023, 02:19:48 AM »

The most shocking answers:
#1
The honest answer is we do not know what a magnetic field is.
What we do know is that a Magnet field is generated by the motion of electrostatic charges
within the the magnet itself. The electric charges being electrons.
https://www.quora.com/Does-a-static-electric-field-interact-with-a-magnetic-field
#2
A magnetic field is a essentially a cloud of virtual photon "place-holders" in a state of flux;
it's what the electrons that produce the field "owe" to other nearby electrons (which have gained real photons),
for having their spin-charge moments aligned in the same direction.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/30517/what-are-electromagnetic-fields-made-of

Wesley

rakarskiy · « **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2023, 08:06:41 AM »

I agree that modern science cannot give a precise answer about the nature of electric and magnetic fields, which would be complete without mutual exclusions. But this in no way prevents engineers from building electromechanical, electrical, electromagnetic and magnetic devices. Produce such a device as a magnet, electromagnet and other components.

The electric field and magnetic field in the usual state of a dipole defining the poles of interaction. The electric field lends itself to such a function as "accumulation", but only in the state of a monopole or asymmetric dipole. The state of an electric dipole in equilibrium cannot be without external action by an electric monopole. Magnetic field has two states Dipole and Anapole (Anapole is a circular state of magnetic flux, example Guardian EDA) Magnetic dipole cannot be asymmetric, it is always symmetric. Magnetic field is the result of action, it cannot be accumulated, it can always only be generated. Since current force is an eddy magnetic field, electric circuits and magnetic circuits are based on the closure of magnetic flux.

I don't care much about the physicist's view, I am only interested in the engineer's view and decision on how to apply this to the design of devices.

onepower · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2023, 05:35:45 PM »

rakarskiy

Quote

I agree that modern science cannot give a precise answer about the nature of electric and magnetic fields, which would be complete without mutual exclusions. But this in no way prevents engineers from building electromechanical, electrical, electromagnetic and magnetic devices. Produce such a device as a magnet, electromagnet and other components.

Well said, I always found it odd that many people claim something can/cannot happen because of the Conservation of Energy. As if it were something or a thing when it's only a theory. It's a good theory and I believe it's true but that's not the point. All experiments and observations should prove the COE is valid not vice versa. Ergo, starting with the conclusion then cherry picking facts to support it is not real science it is biased.

As you implied, in the real world Engineer's don't need to abide by any supposed rules of science they only need to prove something works. The demonstrable proof comes first then the science to support the idea not vice versa.

AC

dsquared18 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2023, 06:29:13 PM »

I like the way both of you approach this.

If I may, I'd just like to add that the laws & theories we have today only describe 5% of the known universe as commonly understood. So-called 'Dark Matter' and 'Dark Energy' making up the vast majority of space.

There's plenty of room for new discoveries, new sources of energy to tap into - if we can only figure out how to do that!

D²

stivep · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2023, 07:22:42 PM »

Quote from: onepower on July 19, 2023, 05:35:45 PM

As you implied, in the real world Engineer's don't need to abide by any supposed rules of science they only need to prove something works. The demonstrable proof comes first then the science to support the idea not vice versa.
AC

Absolutely agree.
However patent office wants to know how you did it.
Kapanadze didn't know why it works but how to build it /
His application was rejected.

So if for example this transformer (toroidal transformer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPXtiJaSiKA
was popular enough in 50ties instead of this one:
https://edisontechcenter.org/Transformers.html
it would be cheaper now than regular one, using transformer silicon steel sheets
the same was with first microwave it was 50k and now is $120.
But for that Patent had to be approved. some time ago only
because they could explain why it works.
So any "magic" device presenting whatever (possible or impossible) needs inventor ability to explain it.

However in USA if you come to PO and put on the table working device , they must examine it.
and can not deny patent if it works despite your ability to explain how it works.
minimum paper work is required.
Wesley

rakarskiy · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2023, 08:40:46 PM »

Quote from: onepower on July 19, 2023, 05:35:45 PM

https://overunity.com/19511/the-argument-for-pepetual-motion/msg580348/#msg580348

The Law of Conservation of Energy is valid only for a closed system.

For example, a transformer is conditionally a closed system, a transformation with an index higher than 1 can not be. By the way, the magnetic field in the transformer is equal to the field of excitation of the input winding. And the output is not equal to this field, such a paradox. If the EMF of the output winding was calculated by the magnetic field of full hysteresis, as in a generator we would have a generator, as a result there is a completely different process, mutual induction between turns. All this I describe in detail and thoroughly in my work. I hope to complete it, some circumstances have opened up that even the combination of Berden and Flynn MEG I have in doubt. Or something crucial to fulfill the generator condition is not specified. It is necessary to check a number of engineering possible solutions, the decisive one should be simple and not visible for demonstrations as in Raselli1.

The GENERATOR is already an open system, generation is always with an index greater than 1, if we make correct calculations, the amplification goes through the magnetic field, which is amplified due to the properties of the core. And if we use permanent magnets, there is no cost for field excitation at all. Mechanical rotation of the rotor, it is a condition for the creation of rotation, field excitation cost part of the consciousness of the condition, not the mechanism of conversion.

And then there are all the patent offices under the hood of the system, and interested corporations. Only open source code.

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