Author Topic: The argument for pepetual motion (Read 4219 times)

onepower · « **on:** July 09, 2023, 01:08:30 AM »

The argument for pepetual motion

Perpetual- Lasting forever; never-ending, continuing or being so for an indefinitely long time.
Motion- The act or process of changing position or place.
Machine- A physical system of fixed and moving parts that performs a task.

The atom has fixed (Proton) and moving (Electron) parts.
An atom is in perpetual motion and it's parts cannot be created/destroyed or stop moving.
The atom also performs the task of being the building block of all physical things in the known universe.
By definition and for all intensive purposes the atom qualifies as a perpetual motion machine.

The problem seems to be that many choose to view things on a superficial level in a subjective manner.
They build a nano-machine made of a few atoms which performs a task and think it's the holy grail.
Where nature has been building machines from atoms into larger and more complex machines for billions of years.

It also helps to understand logic and reasoning to help spot obvious contradictions.
1)The conservation of Energy demands energy cannot be created/destroyed.
2)The conservation of Mass demands the atoms Proton/Electron cannot be created/destroyed.

If the energy and mass of the atom cannot be created/destroyed then it is by definition perpetual.
What do people think "cannot be created/destroyed" and "perpetual" mean?.
Which is where things get a little weird because anyone claiming "perpetual motion" is not real
obviously doesn't understand the conservation of energy and mass.

stivep · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2023, 01:37:04 AM »

https://overunity.com/17735/kapanadze-and-other-fe-discussion/msg579115/#msg579115
https://overunity.com/17735/kapanadze-and-other-fe-discussion/msg579169/#msg579169
Wesley

onepower · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2023, 07:17:21 PM »

Stivep
In my opinion your cherry picking terms and theories however it doesn't actually matter.
Even if your claims were true it still doesn't change the fact that whether the parts of the atom are orbiting or oscillating particles or wave/wave fields it still represents the motion of something on some level. Key word... motion.

Unless of course your claiming that nothing is changing/moving but then you would have to explain what energy is and how it could translate in a static universe where nothing moves. In effect, it's a fools game and something has to change/move, be it a particles, fields or waves. Here's a clue, something cannot change (to cause to be different) without something moving. Which is why all forms of energy always relate to change and/or motion.

This is the real problem... from ChatGPT
Question:if the universe expands and contracts in cycles is this not perpetual?.

Answer:if the universe were to expand and contract in a cyclical manner, with successive periods of expansion and contraction, it would not necessarily be considered perpetual motion. Perpetual motion, refers to a machine or system that can operate indefinitely without the need for external energy input.

As we can see someone has hijacked the term "perpetual motion" to mean a perpetual energy machine instead of continuous motion. Even more absurd is that they tied the fake definition of perpetual motion to an external energy input. Apparently they don't understand how the English language works. Perpetual means continuing or being so for an indefinitely long time. Ergo, I must reject there nonsensical definition as being false and misleading.

In effect, the conservation of energy demands that if anything loses energy something else must gain energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transformed ie. converted into other forms. There can be no more or less energy which relates to the change/motion of something be it particles, fields, waves or anything else. If nothing can be created/destroyed then it must be perpetual.

AC

onepower · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2023, 07:43:56 PM »

In effect, we can establish that everthing is in perpetual motion because the laws
of conservation demand all matter and energy be conserved. They cannot be
created or destroyed and must be conserved.

From this first principal we can then deduce that everything we know is the result
of energy transformations or conversions. Thus we should move past the primitive notion
of creating or producing energy and focus on transforming it.

Of course, first one should understand what energy is.

AC

stivep · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2023, 12:14:06 AM »

Quote from: onepower on July 11, 2023, 07:43:56 PM

In effect, we can establish that everthing is in perpetual motion because the laws
of conservation demand all matter and energy be conserved. They cannot be
created or destroyed and must be conserved.
From this first principal we can then deduce that everything we know is the result
of energy transformations or conversions. Thus we should move past the primitive notion
of creating or producing energy and focus on transforming it.
Of course, first one should understand what energy is.
AC

Nice challenge Thank You onepower.

Quote

A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that a perpetual motion machine of the first kind** cannot exist ;
that is to say, no system without an external energy supply
can deliver an unlimited amount of energy to its surroundings.

Conservation_of_energy
Here is classification related to **
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

Closed system :

Quote

can exchange energy (as heat or work) but not matter, with its surroundings

Motion of a machine or system or process described as perpetual somewhere (= at some place) in within a closed system .
is not the same as energy conservation of that closed system.(- thermodynamics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_system
_{And such open system allows work and energy exchange.}
Isolated system :
In physics chemistry the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant;

The universe
-is considered an isolated system because the energy of the universe is constant.
This matches with the definition of an isolated system, which is that energy is not exchanged with the surroundings, thus staying constant.
_{However for some sceptics it looks like}_{the Universe boundaries are unspecified so is the presence of anything outside of it, nor its any possible interactions}.
_{by that we qualify our Universe based on our point of observation.}
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/281356/what-type-of-thermodynamic-system-is-the-universe

and please watch this video from Wikipedia :
you can make it bigger by clicking at the square icon on the right.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/3/3a/Something_for_nothing_%281940%29.ogv/Something_for_nothing_%281940%29.ogv.240p.webm
Wesley

lancaIV · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2023, 01:58:18 PM »

A good argument for perpetuum work :

I take the Citroen AMI ( ~ Opel ROCKS) lease-plan
basic costs : 8500 €
entry : 950 €
and 20 € per month lease fee/tax

I take from the Stellantis-Group the Tesla Inc.(officially not owned by Stellantis is there by german law-view,through CO2-negotiation a type of "Beherrschungsvertrag",with responsibility/dependence),formerly Tesla Motors Inc.,formerly AC Propulsion Inc.
the robotics R&D result named 'OPTIMUS' ,look for its weight : 74 Kg material and the market entry price preview :
20 000 US$
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Bot

We know about the fast industrial price decrease f.e. video-record player( Grundig : 50 000 DM ),DVD-/CD player,solar cell modules/panels,especially under ' open source' condition = priority date utility : + 10 years ,technical - granted !-patent +20 years + the day after reaction :

- 90% and more from market entry price !

About future low cost robotics : Boston Dynamics,now in corean ownership,their patent list and priority date observation !

Clean robots,alibaba gross selling offer : 5 €/Kg

An 'OPTIMUS'-Bot for later 5 €/Kg x 74 Kg = 370 € each humanoid unit,MAXIMUS !

We can assume that we will see in future many estatal/private ' robot armees' ,cheaper than 'Fremdenlegion' and Wagner monthly member costs and efficiency !

But let us take the actual condition :
950 € + 240 €= 1240 € first year AMI lease costs
Financial relativity : 1240 €/8500 € AMI basic price = 0,146

'OPTIMUS' lease plan ,first year costs :

20 000 € x 0,146 = 2920 € by 8766 hours/year = 0,33 €/hour nonstop productivity costs !
Lower than the world-wide lowest official ' minimum income',Usbekistan : ' 159 US$/month' !
+- 1 US$/hour .

Tesla Inc. calls itself an 'open source'-company,but 20 000 US$/74 Kg is a ' closed source' 270 US$/Kg price philosophy !
Price/costs/worth comparison for transformated material :
Home depot heat pump,ic-genset,Renault KWID,TATA-F.I.A.T. Nano as motoric and fine mechanical mass production hardware : ≤ 10 €/Kg market price .

Let us estimate the preview 270 US$/Kg - at first- to 50 US$/Kg 'OPTIMUS' hardware price :

74 Kg x 50 US$ /Kg = 3700 US$ per unit ( gross selling discount ?)

50/270 x 0,33 € actual -first year- nonstop productivity costs : 0,1852 x 0,33 € =
' open source' -first year- 0,061 € ( 6,1 cents !) per hour nonstop productivity costs !
By 25 US$/Kg the comercial per hour benchmark becomes :
near 3 cents/hour worker=robot=operator costs !

A global german,corean(south),japanese and U.S.A industrial robotics patent review :

2030 is the closed/open source Kipp-point .

Agenda 2010 ,1€ job

Agenda 2030, ≤ 0,1€ job Industrie/-Service Gesellschaft,global

A.I. = Physiology

Mensch-Maschine Kybernetik und Robotik

Happy perpetuum life motivation wishing

OCWL

p.s.:

when by speed = 100 % the power is : 100 %
by speed = 200 % the power is : 800 %

is for speed doubling (rejector/reflector/concentrator/accelerator/multiplier ) 700 % power units in need ?
A.by "Hub-Kraft"-input
B.by "Zug-Kraft"-input

With-/out "Eigen-....." ,"Auto-...." )

p.s. II : ≤ 0,1 € production/transformation costs +Telemetrics gives us

10 $/ton CO2 scrubbing,

≤1 cent/KWh thermic/mechanic-kinetic/electric power,

low cost eco-/poly-tunnel desert vertical farming with f.e. 110 ton/ha wheat gain and a 'semi-closed water cycle '- installation with 90% ( minimum ) less water need !

With Moon-/Mars exploration R&D results we can explore 100% water-/ice-/sand-/rock deserts : on/in Earth!

With known deep rock drilling mining down to 100 Km and more deep : by laser/E.M.R. beam as mill head

ramset · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2023, 04:58:26 PM »

Over 3 billion people have no access to clean water
Or a light switch (cars etc etc?)

1st things 1st
Or we appear as callous sadists , who sentence the less fortunate to poverty and despair!

FE
Those who fear it and hide it are the number one issue !

stivep · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2023, 06:02:03 PM »

Quote from: ramset on July 13, 2023, 04:58:26 PM

Over 3 billion people have no access to clean water
Or a light switch (cars etc etc?) 1st things 1st
Or we appear as callous sadists , who sentence the less fortunate to poverty and despair! FE
Those who fear it and hide it are the number one issue !

It is very unfortunate that
-Energy can not be created nor destroyed,
-Free Energy is only the energy that is FOR FREE if not yet penalized with tax.
-Magnetic motors do not work as self powered
-Perpetual Motion and alike is an absurd according to modern science.
-humans are more concentrated on their own family future.
-and not many people are like Greta Tunberg( now adult)
_____________________________________________________
This is a reality of life.
The only solution to this is Energy conversion used today and that, that is not so much used yet, or not used at all.
My suggestion:
If you see no external power coming into the device that works means it has external energy delivered but you do not know how.
If that device doesn't have it, than it doesn't work, or is using energy stored till it comes to rest.

Some forms of energy can be not noticed by the observer as it may be :
-electromagnetic,
-thermal,
-naturally the result of atmospheric processes of energy exchange,
like solar, wind, clouds, electrostatic and so on.

The first thing to do :
- Do not invest and/or build the device , but look for
a possible source of an external energy powering it and compensating the losses.

The second thing to do:
- you are accumulating all possible knowledge in that given area including processes involved if they are known or
expected to be employed in the given concept or product or model. etc.

The third thing to do:
collect as much of an equipment to measure the processes involved as you think is necessarily.

Conclusion:
You are never loser.
The education stays with you.
Equipment can be re-sold often with profit.
And for that money the new project measurement devices can be acquired if neeeded.

Wesley

bboj · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2023, 06:25:30 PM »

But you did go to visit Kapanadze and obviously you believed in his magical device?

kolbacict · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2023, 06:32:44 PM »

Quote from: stivep on July 13, 2023, 06:02:03 PM

-Perpetual Motion and alike is an absurd according to modern science.
This is a reality of life.
Wesley

Perpetuum mobile is not exist. Perhaps so.
It sounds like a doctor's verdict in an incurable disease..
And what will be done those who gave this 15 years of their lives ?
Just die ?

Quote

Conclusion:
You are never loser.
The education stays with you.
Equipment can be re-sold often with profit.
And for that money the new project measurement devices can be acquired if needed.

This is not America for you. Equipment and instruments will go under the bulldozer.
Because nobody needs anything here. And your life, need not even more so.

rakarskiy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2023, 07:29:46 PM »

Muammer Yulduz is a Turkish inventor who claims to have invented a magnetic motor that can produce free energy. He demonstrated a working model of his magnetic motor at the International Inventors Exhibition in Geneva in 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNq-ocTM9nM&t=515s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5K_wB-xsuM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBXQpmgaJCY&t=330s

What is claimed is not proven! The question is what is proven and how it should be proven. Demonstration at the Geneva exhibition in 2013 is not proof, or for proof it is necessary to disclose the features of the technology to all kinds of moronic experts working for the system.

In June 2019 there was an attempted online broadcast of the inventor's fully autonomous magnetic motor driven electric generator. The broadcast lasted just under seven hours. The system reacted instantly. Two frightened organizers, with frightened eyes told about the breakdown, promised that it would be soon and evaporated from the information field. The repeated demonstration was closed.

Today the website of the company from Turkey has already disappeared.

The problem is not the evidence, but the business interests of a bunch of (...) who have the real power to control the energy market.

https://rakatskiy.blogspot.com/2020/03/blog-post.html

A magnetic motor is not a "perpetual motion machine", it has a cost and a resource that fuel sellers don't like.

lancaIV · « **Reply #11 on:** July 13, 2023, 08:16:42 PM »

OMaG ! a=atheistic

A. clean/dirty water has nothing in relation with ' perpetuum motion' !

Here,an indian solution,30 Rupees ~ 0,37 US$,for 100 lt. each filter :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tqVIb4cls
Compared https://alj.com/en/perspective/j-wafs-in-action-providing-safe-drinking-water-through-wood/
and

https://sanakvo.org/

Something bigger ,cloud/air humidity trap :
https://airhes.com/

What will/can the thursty individual do to get drinkable,healthy,water ?
From the fiction movie ' Dune' and the water recycling distill suit to the U.S.S.R. space-ship MIR the 100%
water recycling system ,
similar https://www.jugend-forscht.de/projektdatenbank/computergesteuerte-abwasserreinigung.html

to 'pee to potable water '-projects :

https://www.google.com/search?q=urin+zu+trinkwasser&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m
https://www.philstar.com/business/business-as-usual/2002/08/05/170909/drinking-water-toilet
2002 prices below,2023 ?

https://www.google.com/search?q=philippine+peso+to+usd&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m

Given economies of scale, the bigger the system and the more its client base, the lower the cost per cubic meter of iodized water. Based on Labuntog’s calculations, a 100 cu.m. plant can sell its water to clients at P26/cu.m. while a 1,200 cu.m. plant can sell at P8/cu.m. In comparison, Maynilad Water Services Inc. charges P27/cu.m. and Manila Water Co. charges P14/cu.m. Disgust versus body-survival !

1,200 cu.m. plant can sell at P8/cu.m.
https://exchangerates.org/usd/php/in-2002

An 1 cbm per day private household greywater to whitewater recycling Labuntog system costs ,2023 ?
In situ near/net/off grid zero energy and near/net/off grid zero water building : autonomous !

B.the ' free' in ' free energy' has nothing to do with financial aspects !
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_free_energy
'free' means physics-chemically : in the atomic structure temporary UNBONDED !
With less understanding mistake/risc : non-/valent energy

It is a short micro-/nano-/femto seconds phase : recombination time ! Exciton !
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exciton
Clearly there are (investment/construction) costs in energy trapping/converting/trans-/forming/ducing devices !
Costs,non-/financial : time,new/used/scratch material,transformation tools,thinking,skills

C. the ' perpetuum mobile ' versus atomic/nuclear decay time !
This is Becquerel/ Curie ' radio-activity' era ,
long after the royal french Academy their non-axiomatic thesis !

And by the academic members Earth-shadow limitation view-point ,without orbital 24/365 sun radi-ation/o-activity !
Orbital solar-farms,24/365 in work modus !

The Academy their members and royal ranking f.e.

Ampere : Duke/Duque/Herzog,also Laplace: Duke/Duque/Herzog
= beside royal academy membership,making part from the royal crown-council !
In the 18./19. century untouchable ( excluding : Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI 'touching' scandal), the royal french/ several royal european academies their ' scientifical' views and decisions !

D. " perpetuum (radio-) activity " and AlNiCo(balt),Samarium,Neodymium ,
Lanthaniden,comercially also called " Rare Earths (minerals) " ,

wmbr
OC

hartiberlin · « **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2023, 04:52:43 PM »

Quote from: stivep on July 13, 2023, 06:02:03 PM

It is very unfortunate that

-Magnetic motors do not work as self powered

Wesley, why do you write this over here ??
It is a free energy research Forum !!!
Would you like to loose again your moderator status ??

onepower · « **Reply #13 on:** July 14, 2023, 10:05:53 PM »

stivep

Quote

It is very unfortunate that -Energy can not be created nor destroyed,

I think the opposite is true.
Since energy is constant or perpetual and cannot be created or destroyed all we need be concerned with is how to transform it.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed only change the form it takes. If we can control which form it takes and when then we control the energy in the system.

Quote

It is very unfortunate that -Magnetic motors do not work as self powered

I think what you meant to say is that you don't understand how it could work. Which is okay because many people don't understand how some things work.

The problem is when some people confuse there own lack of understanding as proof of something. It's a common fallacy and has nothing to do with science but more so our ego. As if to claim nobody can be smarter than us despite the fact other people are always learning new things and doing new things we cannot understand.

I like this quote...
"The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge" - Elbert Hubbard

AC

rakarskiy · « **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2023, 10:27:25 AM »

Эenergy is too broad a concept, even in physics: Potential, explosion, electric field, etc.

Let's take for example the concept of "magnetic field energy".

The energy of a magnetic field is proportional to the inductance (strength, other attributes) and the square of the current magnitude. During the transient process, when the current in the circuit is slowly increasing when switched on, magnetic energy is stored. This energy can be used to do work.

https://rakatskiy.blogspot.com/p/emf-and-current-in-conductor.html

Okay, then how do we define the "magnetic field energy" of a permanent magnet?

A permanent magnet is a product made of magnetically hard material with high "residual" magnetic induction that retains its state of magnetization for a long time. Permanent magnets are made in various shapes and are used as autonomous (non-energy consuming) sources of magnetic field.

(I like this definition most of all, with the only clarification, not residual magnetization, but a running process of generation of magnetic flux. which tends to close in the Anapole state).

If we take an electric circuit, all the actions in the circuit of an electric circuit can be compared as a constant work of electromagnetic, magnetic or electric fields. If there are no vortex fields electric and magnetic around the conductor, there is no what we are looking for.

The electric circuit, electric field can not be attributed to the concept of "Eternal", but "permanent magnet" can be attributed to the system of magnetic field generator "overunity".

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