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Author Topic: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice  (Read 5828 times)

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2023, 02:54:43 PM »
These methods can function with liquid to solid phase changing
substances other than water.  Any expansion greater than 8% 
is of course desirable. As long as its not ice 9.

             hill billy willy

TommeyReed

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2023, 03:20:02 PM »
I was going to do a air conditioning project using ice.

Working with AC companies in the past, I realize a 1 ton unit in the old day was 1ton of ice.  But from the phase change of  32deg to 33deg to liquid the block of ice would produce 288,000 btu in a 24 hour time.
 1 ton = 12,000 btu in 1 hour.

I was doing research using a efficient low power freezer of 120 watts to super chill water for campers, using solar during the day.

At night time a small low power pump could be used to convert that into cooling.

Tom



Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2023, 07:02:37 PM »
very nice
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 12:07:31 AM by Willy »

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2023, 11:51:18 PM »
Keep in mind this is a liquid fluid, not a gas.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2023, 04:08:18 AM »

We increased the buoyancy, by freezing the water cube which surrounds the
neutral buoyancy cube at its center, more so than if we had frozen the water
while it was still in the trough.
    because...
We had already increased the ratio of its exterior surface area (exterior volume) to
its mass, before it was frozen.  Once frozen, The combination of the hollow ice cube
and enclosed solid cube are less dense than the equal mass of frozen water in the
trough.

The frozen water cube, will be more buoyant in water than will be the equal mass of
water as frozen in the trough.

The solid cube, alone, which is centered within the frozen cube is buoyancy neutral
in water.


Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2023, 07:54:04 AM »
No.

If the interior, solid cube is less dense than water, then yes.
If the interior, solid cube is denser than water then no.
If the interior, solid cube is as dense as water then no, no difference.

Only the water's expansion as ice makes a difference.

Other wise, a water filled balloon would be more buoyant than an empty one
of the same mass.  :'(

But we don't need to stack square ice sheets in order to have a thin
layer of water to freeze !

I don't know that this is a new method or not, but I have never seen it before.

Electric energy derivation from buoyancy by means of water to ice phase change,
caused by the application of temperature differences between air and deep water. That's
pretty cool. But I was hoping to push this farther... like O.U..

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2023, 11:40:03 PM »
0.08 joules in a 1 meter of rise of 1 kilogram of ice.
12.5 meters or 41. feet to give 1 joule.
1,250 meters or 4,101.05 feet to give 100 joules.

40 cm/s  or  0.4 m/s per second as the rise speed by buoyancy (max).
4 meters rise in 10 seconds.

1 kilogram at 12.5 meters / 0.4 meters = 31.25 seconds per joule

31.25 kilograms or 8.2554 gallons of ice at 12.5 meters or 41 feet to give us 1 watt.
7.8125 kilograms or 2.06385 gallons of ice at 50 meters or 164 feet to give us 1 watt.

1,000 watts requires 7,812.5 kilograms at  50 meters or
7.8125 kilograms at 50,000 meters.  You pick which one you prefer.

My next project...

             a sled harness for frogs.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2023, 02:32:15 PM »
I looked on line and realized that I could buy decent quality frog harnesses
for less than the price of the materials to make my own.



The volume increase of liquid water to ice is 8%.  0.08 x (1 m^3) 1.000,000 cc =
80,000 cc expansion at  25,000 psi (or 1,757,673 grams per square centimeter).

Lets use that 80,000 cc expansion at  25,000 psi (1,757,674 grams per square centimeter),
to draw a vacuum in a plugged syringe.

Using a syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 1 cubic centimeter
of volume.

The syringe has 0 content before the draw and is neutral buoyant in water.

After the draw, the syringe has expanded to an increased exterior volume by
80,000 cc....  Latch the syringe at that position. It now has a buoyancy force in
water,  of 80,000 grams.

1 psi = 70.3 grams per square centimeter (gsc).

Water pressure at 1 meter is 1.418552 psi

1.418552 psi = 99.73407564314581 gsc (grams per square centimeter)

Water pressure at 1 meter is 99.7340 gsc

1 meter of height of water in a column exerts 99.7340 gsc
1,757,674 gsc /  99.7340 gsc  = 17,623. meters of water depth to match the
1,757,674 gsc generated by the water to ice expansion.

Using a syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 1 cubic centimeters
of volume (1 square centimeters of piston surface).

1,757,674 grams per square centimeter  / 99.7340 gsc = 17,623 meters of water
depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion.


Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 2 cubic centimeters
of volume (2 square centimeters of piston surface).
17,623 / 2  =  8,811 meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion.

Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 4 cubic centimeters
of volume. (4 square centimeters of piston surface)
8,811 / 2 = 4,405  meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion

Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 8 cubic centimeters
of volume. (8 square centimeters of piston surface)
4,405  / 2  = 2,202  meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion

Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 16 cubic centimeters
of volume. (16 square centimeters of piston surface)
2,202  / 2  = 1,101 meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion

 A syringe draw length of 80,00 centimeters by 16 cubic centimeters of volume
for each 1 centimeter of draw length = 1,280,000 cubic centimeters of volume.
12,800 kg of buoyancy.

12,800 kg of buoyancy  x 1101 meters of rise = 14,092,800 joules.

It requires 4.184 joules to decrease the temperature of 1 cc of water by 1 degree
centigrade.

It requires 4,184,000 joules to decrease the temperature of 1 cubic meter of water by
1 degree centigrade.

The illustration below, may not represent the ideal shape for turning the water's
expansion into 80,000 linear centimeters at 25,000 psi.

sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2023, 05:53:13 PM »
Keep in mind this is a liquid fluid, not a gas.


Yes i can confirm that the round (ball) ice cubes are much more buoyant than a square or rectangle cube of the same water volume. This removes changes in buoyant force for comparison.
(personally i never really agreed with the flattening of 3-D objects into a 2-D analogy. Usually the thought experiment involves losing the vertical dimensional translation. Which means the flat square should be larger than predicted)



I believe this is the water resistance (like wind resistance but much worse)
Keep in mind this was tested by a connecting rod attached to the top of the cube,
Leaving its’ surface area exposed during the upward transition, and measuring the force over depth placed upon the rod.
Velocity improved results on all 3 icecube shapes,
Which tells me there is a stronger surface related resistance at slower velocities.


Generally with these tests, the forces at each point add up to the force at the surface when allowed to free-rise. (Some object become airborne, giving additional observational data)
However, in the case of test objects with different shapes (and constant surface area) the results may differ drastically.


Perhaps an oval (elliptical?) ice cube may improve on the sphere….
just my thoughts, haven’t tried that yet.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2023, 10:39:24 PM »
Initially, I was just looking at the 8% density change and the energy potential developed
within that context.  Kind of a warm up.

Now I have expanded the context to include the very large force available as ice expansion.
Its very cool.

Still a lot of details / possible snags / improvements remain to be worked through.

Thanks

panyuming

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2023, 01:04:36 AM »
Study the phase transition of liquid-gas with a volume change greater than 500 times,
and the liquid-solid phase transition with a volume change of 1.08 times,
Obviously more likely to succeed.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2023, 03:41:18 PM »
Study the phase transition of liquid-gas with a volume change greater than 500 times,
and the liquid-solid phase transition with a volume change of 1.08 times,
Obviously more likely to succeed.

Thank you for your responses.

The gases in response to the pressure due to submersion within fluids compress.
That compression is also an increase in the density of those gases.

Increased density means also, decreased buoyancy.

These two factors balance out nicely in all buoyancy devices based upon that method.
This results in a zero net gain in those devices when the heat energy within the gases
remains equal (when submerged and not submerged).

Sufficient temperature differences (from environmental exchanges) and the resulting gas
expansions and / or contractions can, no doubt, cause a buoyancy device to function.

EDIT...

If you know of a gas that does not conform to Boyle's law, please post it here.

Also, if your are aware of a substance that meets   ALL  of these criteria below ...

1. change in volume per calorie of heat is greater than the water to ice phase change.
2. can exert greater than 25,000 psi as a result of that phase change.
3. does not decrease in density as a result of an external pressure applied of 29,000 psi.
4.  an external pressure applied of up to 29,000 psi does not prevent that phase change.

EDIT
3. does not INCREASE in density as a result of an external pressure applied of 29,000 psi.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 12:44:18 AM by Willy »

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2023, 11:09:38 PM »
A 14,092,800 joules to 4,184,000 joules of energy ratio or a

3.3682 joules out    to   1 joule in ratio.

next

Release the latch on the 16 cubic centimeters (16 square centimeter surface area piston)
x 80,000 centimeters long float, now that it is at the surface / at sea level.  It has a
vacuum relative to sea level air pressure.

That vacuum was 16 square centimeters by 1 cubic centimeter by 80,000 centimeters
in relationship to a water depth of 1101 meters.  Now, at sea level, the vacuum is in
relationship to 1032.8092  grams per square centimeter (gsc) or 14.69 psi.

Some more energy out...
1032.8092 gsc of vacuum in the syringe relative to the sea level air pressure times
a displacement of 16 cubic centimeters times 80,000 centimeters as water volume
drawn in (outer side of syringe piston) before a pressure equilibrium is reached.

Now empty (full of water on the outside of the piston), the float/ syringe is again
neutral buoyant in the water. Send / tow it back down, under power of the next
rising float.

And

we still have some chunks of ice riesing, the buoyancy of which we can also harvest.

The fluids, gases used, depths, pressures, volumes and ratios are intended only as
exemplary. Other  fluids, gasses used, depths, pressures, volumes and ratios in some
part or in total, can be applicable to the method presented.


EDITS

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2023, 12:03:30 AM »
.. ..

kolbacict

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2023, 09:51:05 AM »

Release the latch on the 16 cubic centimeters (16 square centimeter surface area piston)
x 80,000 centimeters long float, now that it is at the surface / at sea level.  It has a
vacuum relative to sea level air pressure.


It all need drawing.