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Author Topic: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice  (Read 5830 times)

Willy

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panyuming

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2023, 03:39:30 AM »
Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice.

Not great, but possibly O.U.


Thanks to Willy for sharing his vision for phase transitions.

I feel that improving your idea and using a liquid-to-gas phase transition might have better results.
Because of the phase transition from liquid to gas,
there may be a volume change of more than 500 times.

Figure 1 is a schematic diagram of the assumption principle

Figure 2 shows the structure that may be self-running. It is another solar installation.

The heat of vaporization of water is approximately 2200KJ/KG
The heat of vaporization of Freon is 160KJ/KG

In Figure 2, many expansion boxes hanging on the chain,
each consisting of several thousand small boxes,
are designed to allow for faster heat exchange.

The lower part of each group of expansion boxes has a pressure resistant box with a valve.
The small box and the expansion box are one and move with the chain together.
Eliminates the complex piping and valves and sealing structures that may be required in Figure 1.

Freon emerges from the water at the top of the structure
and is cooled by local cold air into a liquid that flows into this small box.
The valve of the cartridge is then dialed to the closed state at the appropriate position in the chain operation.
The valve of the small box is toggled open at the bottom of the chain ring at the right position.

The liquid Freon in the small box is heated and vaporized at the bottom by lake water at 4 degrees Celsius.
The volume of gas Freon is increased, so that the expansion box floats up, and a larger buoyancy energy is obtained.

If the rotation speed is fast enough, it is not necessary to use car antifreeze.


Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2023, 04:00:48 AM »
Thank you as well.


Water expands upon freezing, due to crystalline structure formations within the ice.
This is not the same kind of process as the thermal expansion of other fluids / gases.

The exterior water pressure inhibits the ability of a gas to expand at depth,
much, much more so than that exterior water pressure affects the transitioning of
water to ice and its accompanying expansion.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 07:46:27 AM by Willy »

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2023, 07:18:26 AM »
Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice.

1. A volume of water is frozen while at some great depth of water.
2. The water surrounding this ice is very near in temperature to the
freezing temperature of water.
3. The ice is contained within a highly temperature insulating vessel while riseing.
4. The insulating vessel has a neutral buoyancy in water.

What effect does water pressure have upon the freezing point of water ?
The freezing temperature of water remains nearly the same up to around
200 MPa or 29,007.5 PSI

1 foot of height of water in a column exerts 0.4335 psi

29,007.5 PSI divided by 0.4335 = 66914.6 feet or 20395.57 meters of depth
in water before there is a significant change in the freezing temperature of water.

The density of liquid water is 1 g/mL.
The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL
The ice is 8% less dense than the water.

Therefore, for every 1 Kilogram of water frozen at depth we get 8% of 1 Kilogram
of buoyancy in water.

1 kg = 9.80665 Newtons
9.80665 Newtons * 0.08 kilograms = 0.784532 newtons of buoyancy force for each
kilogram of ice.

0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.

4.184 joules = 1 calorie.

It requires 4.184 joules to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree
centigrade.

It requires 4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.

Below about 200 meters depth, ocean water has an average temperature of 4°C (39°F).

Given that we begin with water at a temperature of  1 degree centigrade.
Given that our refrigeration device is 100% efficient.

5333 meters is the break even point.

The average of the ocean's depth is 3,700 meters while the Challenger Deep is approximately 10.925 meters.

Water expands upon freezing, due to crystalline structure formations within the ice.

This is not the same kind of process as the thermal expansion of other fluids / gases.

The exterior water pressure inhibits the ability of a gas to expand at depth,
much more so than
that exterior water pressure affects the transitioning of water to ice and its accompanying
expansion.


Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2023, 07:19:38 AM »
combine the above with this

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2023, 07:20:09 AM »
Another observation.

Making sheet ice allows faster freezing, but also faster melting while
rising.

If the ice sheets are formed with lines of perforations,  their own buoyancy (as they rise)
can be used to break the sheets into smaller sheets and then stack those smaller sheets into
a cube form. This, before they enter into a cube shaped insulating jacket. All or nearly all,
accomplished by the energy of their own buoyancy  .

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2023, 06:16:50 PM »
Interlude / direction change.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but

It is my understanding that the electrolysis of water into H and O
under pressures (i.e. under deep water) greater than atmospheric pressure (i.e. sea level)
DOES NOT DECREASE the efficiency of the electrolysis in terms of

Electrical (edit...  joules and / or wattage) input per mass of gasses produced.

High pressures decrease the RATE of production (gas produced per unit of time)
but also simultaneously decrease the electric current flowing through the electrolyte
(per unit of time) ? ? ?

Efficiency in terms of energy input to energy output remains the same ? ? ?

The advantages of electrolysis

while under water pressure 

as opposed to in atmosphere

1. The use of a supporting buoy at the top of the rise, in water as opposed to the use of a tower
or a lighter than air balloon buoy in atmosphere at the top of the rise.

2 The availability of neutral buoyancy rope in water as opposed to the unavailability
of a neutral buoyancy rope in atmosphere. A long rope gets very heavy in atmosphere.

3. Greater energy output per unit of  rise distance.

kolbacict

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2023, 08:13:14 PM »


Efficiency in terms of energy input to energy output remains the same ? ? ?



Not much less will be the real output gas per current, but that's not the point.
Too little volume of gases is produced in absolute terms, or gigantic currents are needed.
Or you need to look for other chemicals that produce a larger volume of gas at a lower current.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2023, 08:40:53 PM »
Not much less will be the real output gas per current, but that's not the point.
Too little volume of gases is produced in absolute terms, or gigantic currents are needed.
Or you need to look for other chemicals that produce a larger volume of gas at a lower current.

"Not much less will be the real output gas per current, but that's not the point."

                      Correction, this is very much so is a main point of this presentation.


                            "Too little volume of gases is produced in absolute terms. "

                                  1.   Your statement is unclear, since it does not tell us what
                                        you mean by the phrase "absolute terms".
                                   2.  Mass of gases produced, not VOLUME. is that which I
                                        spoke of.
                                   3. The gases produced will have less volume at depth, than
                                                             they will have at sea level.
                                    4. The gases remain buoyant at depth until their density matches
                                                                        that of the water.
                                        Question ? ... At what depth under water / at what pressure,
                                         does oxygen, does hydrogen reaqch the same density as water?
                                                       Temperature is also a factor in this whole process.
                                    5. The gases increase in buoyancy as they rise in the water.

                            "Or you need to look for other chemicals that produce a larger
                                                   volume of gas at a lower current."

                                                                      I do not agree.

                            Your point is a valid one. 
                       Thanks

                       EDIT...  Your point is an important one and valid.
                                        Thank you very much. Great input !

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2023, 06:10:19 PM »
12,214,800 joules to produce 1 cubic meter of hydrogen at sea level (82 grams).
1 cubic meter of hydrogen by buoyancy in atmosphere can lift 1.2 kg of weight.

9.8 joules to lift 1 kilogram 1 meter

9.8 x 1.2 Kg = 11.76 joules to lift 1.2 Kg 1 meter

12,214,800 joules electrical input / 11.76 joules of energy gain as lifting per meter
= 1,038,674 meters in altitude. or  1,038,674 kilometers
3,407,723. feet  or  645 miles altitude break even point.

There is a minimum rising distance IN ATMOSPHERE, of the hydrogen gas produced by the electrolysis in order to break even between, the joules of energy gained as gas rise, and the joules of energy input to do the electrolysis. The break even point occurs at 645 miles
elevation !

asdfasdfsadfsdfsdf

Given that the heat produced in an electrolyte plus the heat of the combustion of
the H and O produced, is equal to the input electrical energy to do the electrolysis
(unity), an over unity gain can be realized after the hydrogen's rise due to buoyancy
in atmosphere and    then    combustion at altitude.  It is a small percentage O.U.
and difficult to make practical use of.

           under water
Increase in the gas density will decrease the buoyancy force available from the gases.
                 
The rate at which the density of the gasses increases as water pressure increases
(with greater depth), makes a break even point unobtainable ?

unless...
Combustion after the gas rise and the heat from the electrolysis are again taken into
account.

What I have been / am examining here (second part of this topic), if it is possible to
improve that O.U percentage via under water electrolysis
          and if not,
then can it be more easily accessed when done under water.
or
perhaps, under water but also in part, above water?

sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2023, 06:55:30 PM »
I lost my lengthy reply.
Short version: look into temperatures and depths. I suspect close to freezing water will prove very hard to find.
It would be a cool experiment to make an ice cube near the surface and at the bottom of a lake, same water temperature, compare the energy needed. How much energy could be extracted needs to be realistically assesed.

I like tidal flows more. Only side effect might be that when we hamper ebb and flow, we're making the moon crash into Earth. It's only logical.

Here's an ancient Dutch concept for a tidal like in the North Sea.
My favourite thing about it is that this form of construction gets more efficient as it's built bigger.
Twice the length of surrounding structures...4x the water contained/drained per tide flow.


It inverts at some depth, a little backwards from the way logic wants us to look at it.
One might assume the higher pressure would increase the temperature
in some cases, this is true within a given depth range,
But at great depths, pressure greatly increases. Due to the PVT relationship, and the associated decrease in volume, temperature actually drops. (deep sea gets down to about 4 degrees above freezing)
Bottom of a lake should be better, because it is closer to the freezing point.
and the density under this pressure should tip the displacement equation in our favor.


a few criteria:

If your math is correct, you’re looking at a maximum depth of around 10,000 ft

The refrigeration system should be designed to operate under pressure
and the heat exchange mechanisms will need to be as efficient/fast as possible.
aluminum has high thermal conductivity, however most refrigerator radiators are fragile
So maybe something from the computer/electronics industry, copper tubing, etc.
may consider replacing the paint on the compressor with a thermally conductive paint, if you use a compression based refrigerant system.
but to be honest; electronic or elastic systems can perform the same function
As can linear motors (sterling, acoustic, etc)
I would just keep in mind a fast transfer of heat to the lake when choosing materials in general.


for buoyancy energy generation (water, air, or any fluid)
the height of the column is the determining factor.


Filling a helium balloon high up in the air it doesnt have very far to rise
But fill it at the ground tied to a cable, you can compress more helium to than you used.


temperature difference also is important.
with helium in air (or a more dense gas) you want hot helium rising and cool it on the way down.


But for ice: you want just around or slightly below freezing.
Go too cold and it begins to contract again. Go too cold under very large pressures it will deuterate. (great heat and pressure can also but to a lesser degree)


you wont get that cold, and a lake probably isnt that deep
but there is a scale for ice (based on the purity) it will expand at the freezing point, then contract at a colder temperature.
hot water goes through this change at a temperature range also right around boiling, after it condenses and releases its trapped gasses.
It is this aspect of H2O that gives us this buoyancy condition.
(and subsequently why hot water floats)


your concept is very intriguing, i think with enough flushing this out, we may be able to create a working ice-buoyancy system.


sort of an after though:
If using a compression-based refrigerant system, there are two scenarios which stand out.
One is designing a system that makes use of the water pressure of the lake.


The other compresses the gas above water and expands it into an underwater chamber where the ice is made. (similar to the balloon system someone posted above, but using a static chamber to expand the gas and a heat exchanger to cool the water below freezing).


Also: need to think about part; as we don’t want heat from the lake melting the ice on the way up via the heat exchange mechanisms.



Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2023, 07:22:01 PM »

                RETURNING TO THE
                     BUOYANCY BY
          WATER TO ICE PHASE CHANGE
                             SUBJECT

smoky2

Thanks for the observations and considerations given.

I expect,  I'll need to examine and then cogitate upon it for a spell.
Probably, I will have some questions / need of some clarifications.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2023, 09:10:39 PM »
partial quote

a few criteria:
If your math is correct, you’re looking at a maximum depth of around 10,000 f



1 foot of height of water in a column exerts 0.4335 psi

29,007.5 PSI divided by 0.4335 = 66914.6 feet or 20395.57 meters of depth
in water before there is a significant change in the freezing temperature of water.

The density of liquid water is 1 g/mL.
The density of liquid water is 1 g/cm^3
The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL
The density of ice is 0.92 g/cm^3
The ice is 8% less dense than the water.

Therefore, for every 1 Kilogram of water frozen at depth we get 8%  of 1
Kilogram of buoyancy in water.

1 kg = 9.80665 Newtons
9.80665 Newtons * 0.08  kilograms = 0.784532
newtons of buoyancy force for each kilogram of ice.

0.7845  buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.

4.184 joules = 1 calorie.

It requires 4.184 joules to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree
centigrade.

It requires 4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.

Below about 200 meters depth, ocean water has an average temperature of 4°C (39°F).

Given that we begin with water at a temperature of  1 degree centigrade.
Given that our refrigeration device is 100% efficient.


0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.

4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.

4184 / 0.7845 = 5333

5333 meters is the break even point.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2023, 12:42:53 AM »
smoky2

Is this the idea that was rolling around in your mind ?
Refrigeration system at the surface ?

Using an aspect of the idea from the post by  panyuming here @

https://overunity.com/19442/buoyancy-device-by-phase-change-of-water-to-ice/msg576918/#msg576918

His "figure 2.jpg"

We can get all the free refrigeration we want.

Surface air temperature can be much colder than any thing we need.

Exchange heat with, for example ambient arctic air.

We could pump a refrigerated cooling fluid from the surface, through an
insulated tubing to depth while not having to overcome pressure at depth,
as long as the output end of the tubing returns to the height of the
water surface / height we pump the fluid from.

The energy cost is basically, overcoming friction in the tube while pumping.

Thanks again panyuming

 Brain pools can certainly rock it... some times.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2023, 01:29:21 AM »
Another observation.

Making sheet ice allows faster freezing, but also faster melting while
rising.

If the ice sheets are formed with lines of perforations,  their own buoyancy (as they rise)
can be used to break the sheets into smaller sheets and then stack those smaller sheets into
a cube form. This, before they enter into a cube shaped insulating jacket. All or nearly all,
accomplished by the energy of their own buoyancy  .

Decreasing the ice surface area to volume ratio slows down melting.

A neutral buoyancy, cubical insulating container for containing a large block of
ice, that's doable.

Splitting perforated ice sheets progressively down into smaller square sheets,
by use of their own rise due to buoyancy, that's doable.

Stacking the square ice sheets in to a cube, by use of their own rise due to
buoyancy, that's doable.

Placing them into a cubical insulating container, by use of their own rise due to
buoyancy, that's doable.

Closing and latching the sixth side of the containers, by use of their own rise due to
buoyancy, that's doable.

A neutral buoyancy rope or chain, that's doable.

Place the electric generator at the top of the rise

Reverse most of the process at the top of the rise.