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Author Topic: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice  (Read 5853 times)

Willy

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Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« on: April 13, 2023, 11:23:35 PM »
Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice.

1.  A volume of water is frozen while at some great depth of water.
2. The water surrounding this ice is very near in temperature to the
freezing temperature of water.
3. The ice is contained within a highly temperature insulating vessel.
4. The insulating vessel has a neutral buoyancy in water.

What effect does water pressure have upon the freezing point of water ?
The freezing temperature of water remains nearly the same up to around
200 MPa or 29,007.5 PSI

1 foot of height of water in a column exerts 0.4335 psi

29,007.5 PSI divided by 0.4335 = 66914.6 feet or 20395.57 meters of depth
in water before there is a significant change in the freezing temperature of water.

The density of liquid water is 1 g/mL.
The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL
The ice is 8% less dense than the water.

Therefore, for every 1 Kilogram of water frozen at depth we get 8% of 1 Kilogram
of buoyancy in water.

1 kg = 9.80665 Newtons
9.80665 Newtons * 0.08 kilograms = 0.784532 newtons of buoyancy force for each
kilogram of ice.

0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.

4.184 joules = 1 calorie.

It requires 4.184 joules to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree
centigrade.

It requires 4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.

Below about 200 meters depth, ocean water has an average temperature of 4°C (39°F).

Given that we begin with water at a temperature of  1 degree centigrade.
Given that our refrigeration device is 100% efficient.

5333 meters is the break even point.

The average of the ocean's depth is 3,700 meters while the Challenger Deep is approximately 10.925 meters.

Not great, but possibly O.U.

vineet_kiran

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2023, 06:12:19 AM »

I have done a similar experiment.  Fill a small steel jar with water upto 25%, close the lid and shake the jar up and down.  Nothing will happen.  But if you fill the jar (25%) with hot water giving out steam, close the lid and shake the jar up and down, the lid will fly off with high energy!   What would be the reason for it? 

kolbacict

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2023, 09:49:48 AM »
Obviously pressure of steam.

Quote
The Air in the jar rapidly heats when the jar is shaken.  This is due to the
hot water mixing with the air.
Obviously,I was wrong. :(
« Last Edit: April 15, 2023, 05:58:45 PM by kolbacict »

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2023, 05:00:49 PM »
Air expands when heated, it contracts when it is cooled down.

The Air in the jar rapidly heats when the jar is shaken.  This is due to the
hot water mixing with the air.

This is not the same thing as a phase change of water turning to ice @

https://overunity.com/19442/buoyancy-device-by-phase-change-of-water-to-ice/msg576521/#msg576521

sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2023, 08:07:59 PM »
There is an associated change in volume of the insulated container,
What affect might this have on changes in temperature?
Begin freezing the water, and the effect causes an increase in temperature?
Theres also the weight of the refrigerator system, which will be much less buoyant than ice.
Causing a technical issue with the freezing.


It is an interesting concept, but i can see some issues that would first need to be addressed

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2023, 08:18:59 PM »

Agree.

Lots of problems to over come with this process.

Thanks for the input.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2023, 08:27:46 PM »
There is an associated change in volume of the insulated container,
What affect might this have on changes in temperature?
Begin freezing the water, and the effect causes an increase in temperature?
Theres also the weight of the refrigerator system, which will be much less buoyant than ice.
Causing a technical issue with the freezing.


It is an interesting concept, but i can see some issues that would first need to be addressed

Thanks again.

I gave very little detail, sorry

In my mind the ice was placed into the the insulating container after freezing.

In my mind the the refrigeration system remains at depth.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2023, 08:46:24 PM »
...

telecom

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2023, 05:29:18 AM »
any liquid can be used which changes density with the temp.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 09:37:02 AM by telecom »

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2023, 03:51:45 PM »
considerations ..

The most change in volume per degree of temperature change.

Use of ambient temperature can bring water into very near to the phase
change temperature, either side, higher or lower.

Got other ideas - info ?

sm0ky2

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2023, 04:59:01 PM »
Thanks again.

I gave very little detail, sorry

In my mind the ice was placed into the the insulating container after freezing.

In my mind the the refrigeration system remains at depth.


This helps, we can simplify a lot of things now.


So, if say the refrigerant system allows intake at depth
And the ejection port faces upwards:
The change in buoyancy could be harvested directly.
Then its a matter of depth vs cooling energy (electric or compression or ?)
Would need a large volume of water, not merely a column, to prevent cooling of the reservoir

Cloxxki

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2023, 05:10:23 PM »
considerations ..

The most change in volume per degree of temperature change.

Use of ambient temperature can bring water into very near to the phase
change temperature, either side, higher or lower.

Got other ideas - info ?

I lost my lengthy reply.
Short version: look into temperatures and depths. I suspect close to freezing water will prove very hard to find.
It would be a cool experiment to make an ice cube near the surface and at the bottom of a lake, same water temperature, compare the energy needed. How much energy could be extracted needs to be realistically assesed.

I like tidal flows more. Only side effect might be that when we hamper ebb and flow, we're making the moon crash into Earth. It's only logical.

Here's an ancient Dutch concept for a tidal like in the North Sea.
My favourite thing about it is that this form of construction gets more efficient as it's built bigger.
Twice the length of surrounding structures...4x the water contained/drained per tide flow.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2023, 01:54:08 AM »

This helps, we can simplify a lot of things now.


So, if say the refrigerant system allows intake at depth
And the ejection port faces upwards:
The change in buoyancy could be harvested directly.
Then its a matter of depth vs cooling energy (electric or compression or ?)
Would need a large volume of water, not merely a column, to prevent cooling of the reservoir

Conditions required.

1. near freezing temperature water
2, water with great depth.
3, " large volume of water, not merely a column"

   "Then its a matter of depth vs cooling energy"

I think that with careful design and selection of installation location,
such a design could do more out than in. 

An illustration to follow...



Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2023, 01:57:49 AM »

Cloxxki

Tidal harvest is a great way to go.

Willy

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Re: Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2023, 02:39:54 AM »

Vertical Ice sheets inside over sized insulating sandwich bags.
with a slow rise and descent, to minimize friction.
Thin sheets can exchange temp more rapidly than cubes (more exposed surface area).

Gear box below, magnetic linking from gear box to refrigeration unit's
mechanical drive.  ? ? ?