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Author Topic: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV  (Read 5841 times)

TommeyReed

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2023, 03:30:20 AM »
Hi All,

My question is why was it not running on it's own power?

I seen the guy turning the water wheel, looks like he's getting a good workout.

Simple to build, but the flow of the water seems to be too little to move that wheel.

Tom

Cloxxki

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2023, 05:12:41 PM »
Hi All,

My question is why was it not running on it's own power?

I seen the guy turning the water wheel, looks like he's getting a good workout.

Simple to build, but the flow of the water seems to be too little to move that wheel.

Tom
Valid question.

Assuming it's a legit amply overunity invention, some of it might be the magic of television, unfortunate editing for our sake, saving the general public from the boredom of a wheel turning forever and going nowhere.
It's not a lot of water, no, but there is a bit of leverage from its size. It's not scooping at the bottom which helps, but it still need to run a generator that is able to drive a motor that runs the supposedly efficient pump.
The way that water drives the wheel looks so unefficient, that the pump itself could be (a bit) overunity and it would still stop making the flow needed to run itself.

In the rich history of inventors hiding their actual inventions, might they have invented an efficient out pipe rather than an efficient pump?
If they were to scale up the system to show more water on the wheel, might that actually hurt their overall efficiency with water spilling? Their outer wheel looks about 3 or 5 centuries old for refinement. I'm sure their bearings are into the last century at least.
It look a fun project to replicate a basic version of the patented pump and then place it level with water surface, below, or over, and measure efficacy. Various well-placed air inlets would be educational. Either we learn what's worst, or there might be an unexpectedly advantageous way to allow atmosperic air boost the outflow after investing the energy to get the water sub-baric.

Cloxxki

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2023, 10:55:18 PM »
A vacuum is to do with air, your confusing a giraffe and a bulldozer, this is a fluid and its called hydraulics'.

Sil
Elaborate? The patent uses the word vacuum and it's all about water.

What do you call it when you have a pipe section with a volume of 10 liters and there's only ~4 liters of water in it, and nothing else, not even air?

Curious is that I spoke with some researches about the pump possible being helical in nature.
And they company name starts with "heli". Odd coincidence, or...?

They show off a low resolution picture of a non-helical slotted impeller housing just like in the patent, but that may not be their latest version.

Cloxxki

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2023, 11:13:37 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZard9fUGTk

Close up video, drive by a battery handdrill.

hartiberlin

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2023, 10:47:45 PM »
Now I have uploaded the video to youtube.I will try to visit the company at the end of April with a colleage to buy a pump from them...I hope I can do this with my bad health , but my colleague will drive the car to them..its about 150 km away from Berlin, Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrP83x2nYtY

Regards, Stefan.

Cloxxki

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2023, 05:05:18 PM »
Now I have uploaded the video to youtube.I will try to visit the company at the end of April with a colleage to buy a pump from them...I hope I can do this with my bad health , but my colleague will drive the car to them..its about 150 km away from Berlin, Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrP83x2nYtY

Regards, Stefan.
Exciting, Stefan!
I'm sure you'll be well on the mend by then.

Do you or your friend have experiences with pump to intuitively be able to tell how efficient they are?
Waterflow when there is little or no altitude gained, flow quite easily. We've all dug trenches on the beach and know how easily a shovel can move liters of water at good speed, as long as it's more or less level with the Earth's surface. Bringing the water up a meter or two is where the muscles come in.
To lift 100 grams by 1 meter every second at 100% efficiency is just ONE WATT of power...
So when we see a water flow of say 1 L/s being brought up 10 cm, that's still just 1 Watt plus a tiny bit for the horizontal momentum needed to not fall back onto itself adding backpressure.

Anyone, if I'm wrong, please do correct me. I'm often wrong :)

The waterwheel when in the picture was always being manually helped, at all the speeds. Doesn't exactly look like a runaway waterwheel :)

russwr

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2023, 01:38:04 AM »
John Keely from workshop Pa., 1865 -1899, invented and tested proven a self running water hydraulic motor. It had a Patent application that did not have the investor's names on it. Machine was shown with power take off running a saw , sawing wood. It developed 50lbs internal pressure from revolving 4 way valve that delivered higher pressure from water hammer and cavitation. He said he could control forces of nature with harmonic ratios of frequency vibrations. A similar unit was built and shown in Africa , many years ago. You can see an original /or  replica of Keely's device on You Tube.

Fernandez

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2023, 02:02:52 AM »
Now I have uploaded the video to youtube.I will try to visit the company at the end of April with a colleage to buy a pump from them...I hope I can do this with my bad health , but my colleague will drive the car to them..its about 150 km away from Berlin, Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrP83x2nYtY

Regards, Stefan.

Your health issues are certainly not my business but I have been down that road before with a few good friends. Never hurts to look into Tart Cherry Juice (no less than 1000mg a day) it is an all natural Natural Inflammatory. ......... I am not a doctor but it helped me and a few others.

Best of health to you.

Fernandez

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2023, 03:12:47 AM »
Your health issues are certainly not my business but I have been down that road before with a few good friends. Never hurts to look into Tart Cherry Juice (no less than 1000mg a day) it is an all natural Natural Inflammatory. ......... I am not a doctor but it helped me and a few others.

Best of health to you.

Correction .....Anti-Inflammatory.

The blending of magnetic fields plays a number on you.  :)

DaKrampus

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2023, 06:32:21 PM »
Hi All,

My question is why was it not running on it's own power?

I seen the guy turning the water wheel, looks like he's getting a good workout.

Simple to build, but the flow of the water seems to be too little to move that wheel.

Tom

Actually it is clear that the wheel is to heavy for the water to make it move. That is why he is using the crank to bring it up to speed. The german text then says that once it is at speed, it produces enough electricity to run the pump, which then pumps enough water to keep the wheel running. I suppose it cannot really produce a lot of extra energy, and that the people buying it in the scandinavian countries will probably have a nicely spinning "waterwheel", but i cannot imagine that energy production will go much further than maybe load a phone. it is a little like the inventor interview for the lüling motor. The inventor was enthousiastic, like this one, but the system never went into production.

Ok, i think those two builders are in good faith, but analyzing what i have seen, it think the guy spinning the wheel with his crank, gives it so much kinetic energy that it will spin a day or more (being very heavy and the water pump helping)

Cant wait to hear Stefans feedback after he visited the 2 inventors!!!

Luc

Cloxxki

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2023, 02:00:46 PM »
Actually it is clear that the wheel is to heavy for the water to make it move. That is why he is using the crank to bring it up to speed. The german text then says that once it is at speed, it produces enough electricity to run the pump, which then pumps enough water to keep the wheel running. I suppose it cannot really produce a lot of extra energy, and that the people buying it in the scandinavian countries will probably have a nicely spinning "waterwheel", but i cannot imagine that energy production will go much further than maybe load a phone. it is a little like the inventor interview for the lüling motor. The inventor was enthousiastic, like this one, but the system never went into production.

Ok, i think those two builders are in good faith, but analyzing what i have seen, it think the guy spinning the wheel with his crank, gives it so much kinetic energy that it will spin a day or more (being very heavy and the water pump helping)

Cant wait to hear Stefans feedback after he visited the 2 inventors!!!

Luc
What they are showing hardly looks like an optimised system. If that thing can only produce water splatter and a phone charge, then surely in that same reality there is rool to optimize the liquid being pumped, water-to-wheel interaction, ideal pump flow wheel height and (independently) radius ratios, pump rpm, pump geometry, pump housing and blade surface patterns, etc, etc? Any such opimizations from what a couple of German blokes threw together would elevate the output to change a phone (say, 1-5 Watts) to a decent percentage of the pump's power which seems significant, maybe around the kW range?

I think, it either doesn't self run, or it can do so easily with refinements and with worthwhile output. It seems it will never have a high power density, as it relies on a big apparatus and just a bit of water coming down a small height difference under the weak force of gravity.

If there is indeed a gain, it seems it must be on the overcoming of gravity side, else the waterwheel would surely have been an enclosed turbine relying on pressure rather than potential energy?
At the moment I can only imagine a gain if the way the pump worked and were hooked up to inlet and any amount of exhausts or ambient air inlets, to somehow do better than the mathemetical flow possible for the power driving the pump.
I'm no builder or even published academic, but I can only see a gain for a "vacuum" pump when it cleverly interacts with ambient air, which is the abundant factor in this system.

Is the pump really vastly more efficient than traditional pumps, more than 100% efficient? A water wheel that doesn't need Mr. Hand would be convicing, but we've not seen it without Mr. Hand.
Let's all hope Stefan will soon be fit to travel to Bavaria and meet with the inventor and learn about it what he's able to. If I had a car, I might have done the 800 km drive there just for fun. I don't even need an OU invention as an excuse to be in Bavaria, I love the mountains and cross-country ski trails there :)

sm0ky2

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2023, 02:29:20 PM »
Well, I just got an email from a friend, that he himself visited these 2 inventors a few years back..
There the machine did not work yet selfrunning...
Maybe they are still working on it ??
He also doubted that they will get it to selfrun..
I tried to call just now the TV station, but today it was already a bit too late in the day...

Will try again next week.
Regards, Stefan.


To improve the efficiency of this machine:
Take the height at which the output water impacts the wheel with a downward force,
and go to the back of the machine and cut the pipe off at that height.


Any height above this, you are simply wasting energy lifting water against gravity, then recovering a percentage of that to assist in driving the wheel.
This is nonsensical. It is better to use it as is, without trying to feed the water back in.


DaKrampus

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2023, 07:14:32 PM »
well, very strange. the same day i read about this water wheel device here (and saw the video stefan had uploaded to yt),
there was a program on austrian tv called "2 minutes - 2 millions". they have the same in other countries, in germany its called "Höhle der Löwen" - "The cavern of lions", in the states its "shark tank" and there is also "dragons den" i think in canada.

Anyway here in Austria there was an old man and his granddaughter presenting his invention to a group of investors. Actually the invention was a "solar steam engine water pump". (i continued watching because i was still under the impression of this pump video here).
They had to pixelate the pump because he was waiting for the patent, but to make a long story short, he convinced one of the investors to give him 500.000 euro. Actually its an easy running waterpump like this one, but its driven with, what he calls a modified solar cell steam engine. the cell is about 2 square feet, it does not generate electricity but it simply heats a very small amount of water to produce steam, and this steam makes the pump run. so its a sort of "solar steam engine".

if someone is interested i am adding the few pics of the device here (those that are not pixelated) but somehow if the pump we've seen above is so efficient, it would run like hell with this device.
Here is what I know:
its got (a future homepage) https://pumpa.tech
the tv program it was on:
https://www.puls4.com/tv/2-minuten-2-millionen/staffel-10/episode-01/pumpa-im-pitch
the video there is only the part where they present the pump.

its in german of course, and there are 2 commercial blocks embedded, sorry thats not my call.

Basically for the non german speakers, she is explaning that the system uses about one glass of water that is heated as steam, and runs the steam engine that is producing electricity to run the pump. The guy that invests the 500.000 € is hans peter Haselsteiner, an austrian billionaire, one of the richest men in the country, he has a very big international construction company (so the 500.000 are peanuts for him).
I will certainly keep on watching this.

Sorry i didn't want to spam this thread, but i thought it might be interesting until stefan as visited those 2 inventors of the other pump.

Luc

Cloxxki

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2023, 09:54:20 PM »

To improve the efficiency of this machine:
Take the height at which the output water impacts the wheel with a downward force,
and go to the back of the machine and cut the pipe off at that height.


Any height above this, you are simply wasting energy lifting water against gravity, then recovering a percentage of that to assist in driving the wheel.
This is nonsensical. It is better to use it as is, without trying to feed the water back in.
Seems that way to me as well. Although I'd rather see a taller wheel to make up the full height.
In my fairy tale version where the vacuum pockets in the water and/or air bubbles let in on the way up play a role in lifting the water higher than a normal pump would, there might be a case to take the water as high as it goes.
Any downward pointing outlet pipe might play a role in pulling low pressure inside the rest of the pipe. With more vacuum bubbles collapsing further downstream, the water exiting downward would be denser than the water coming up. Quite a theoretical stretch, and the prototype doesn't seem to actively make sure of any special flow dynamic, it just had water coming out being aimed at the wheel below and that's it.

I'd love to see a well matched and tuned off the shelf pump substitute theirs, for a comparison in in runtime or manual start input. If the water wheel would be running day and night like a champ, it wouldn't matter much but still interesting to know how much better it were to be.

hartiberlin

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Re: German inventor presents self running water wheel on TV
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2023, 05:43:15 PM »
We canceled the Visit, as they also don't want any new visitors anymore and it was said, that the old inventor now has dementia and can no longer work on it....
So this project seems to be dead and did not selfrun...
Was probably just a media hype of theTV station that made the video...

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 11:24:10 PM by hartiberlin »