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Author Topic: TopRuslan  (Read 29864 times)

Offline Dog-One

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2023, 05:03:56 PM »
In the frequency range between 1 and  9 Mhz i saw some eye opening frequency points.
Here is where you have to come in.

You should see on a spectrum f1 + f2, f1 - f2 and any derivatives that
can form from those four frequencies within the grenade.  I would
venture a guess, some of those frequencies like your grenade and
boost, while others are dampened by your grenade and diminish.

Then it's a matter of calculating why you are getting what you are
getting so we can do it repeatedly.

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2023, 06:33:11 PM »
You should see on a spectrum f1 + f2, f1 - f2 and any derivatives that
can form from those four frequencies within the grenade.  I would
venture a guess, some of those frequencies like your grenade and
boost, while others are dampened by your grenade and diminish.

Then it's a matter of calculating why you are getting what you are
getting so we can do it repeatedly.

I dont have a spectrumanalyser, and would not know how to handle tye data.

Is there another way?
Lets do it otherway around.

Do we need 100% in phase at all parameters? Or is it hetter to have antenna out of phase  90dgr?
Or must we look for other combination?

Assuming all in phase is best ....this would be 1.45Mhz.(inductor not in phase)... or 3.2Mhz
If 3.2 is legimit then the grenade induction is to low.... i dont want to past the 2.0Mhz


Offline Dog-One

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2023, 07:25:17 PM »
I dont have a spectrumanalyser, and would not know how to handle tye data.

I'm certain your scope has a math function with FFT.
Use that and look for frequency peaks.

Do we need 100% in phase at all parameters? Or is it hetter to have antenna out of phase  90dgr?
Or must we look for other combination?

Think about what "phase" means.  It's just the point in the wave
where you are measuring at.  Keep in mind, unless you inject the
signal at the very end of the grenade (which you are not), the phase
will be advanced by some amount (30cm per nanosecond from the
end).  The signal then will propagate in both directions from the
injection point.

Assuming all in phase is best ....this would be 1.45Mhz.(inductor not in phase)... or 3.2Mhz
If 3.2 is legimit then the grenade induction is to low.... i dont want to past the 2.0Mhz

So are you classifying "grenade induction" as the signal coming
from the push-pull?  Or is that the signal coming from the Tesla
coil?  And if it is that, what are you calling the other signal?

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2023, 07:31:06 PM »
I'm certain your scope has a math function with FFT.
Use that and look for frequency peaks.


I see... roger.
Tbc

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2023, 08:28:19 PM »


So are you classifying "grenade induction" as the signal coming
from the push-pull?  Or is that the signal coming from the Tesla
coil?  And if it is that, what are you calling the other signal?

From tesla... antenne.
So infact kacher frequency versus grenade voltage and current...
Inductor loop out of scope for the moment

So what i understand these figures dont bring us further?

Offline stivep

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2023, 09:28:53 PM »

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2023, 10:00:06 PM »
I see... roger.
Tbc

See short vid
Made new one, first vid not ok

https://youtu.be/bduAT_BqilE



Offline Dog-One

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Re: TopRuslan (Principal of Operation)
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2023, 10:59:35 PM »
See short vid
Made new one, first vid not ok

Very good.  I'll watch it here shortly.

In the meantime, it all just came to me...

The mixing of voltage and current...

Let's start with a transmission line, closed on one end;
open on the other.  There are signals inside this transmission
line, propagating back and forth with nearly no loss.

Which end do I use to measure the current?

The closed end.  I need a conductor to measure what is flowing
through it.

Which end do I use to measure the voltage?

The open end.  I cannot take a reading for the difference in
potential with a shunt there.

So now we have some terminology.  Our grenade coil is a
transmission line that is basically open on one end; shorted on
the other.  The shorted side is the current side; the open side is
the voltage side.

So what happens when a wave hits the voltage side?

It reverses direction and comes back same polarity reversed
in time, because there is no circuit there so it cannot flow
through.  All it can do is bounce back.

What happens when a wave hits the current side?

It crosses over and continues on its way without time reversal
and looks like a polarity flip.

So there we have a good chunk of this mystery solved IMHO.
We have two extremely valuable events within this simple hunk
of wire.  We have a voltage/current mixing device.  And we have
a time reversal device.  If we can't make free (as in beer) electrical
power with that, I'm sorry, there's no hope for us.   ;)

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2023, 11:08:39 PM »
Made a second vid after rewinding layer 6 from cw to ccw.
Which lowered the inductance from 80yH to 17uH.
Frequency increased from 1.78 to 2.3 Mhz approx.

https://youtu.be/uhxOdjuRgnc

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan (Principal of Operation)
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2023, 11:11:42 PM »
Very good.  I'll watch it here shortly.

In the meantime, it all just came to me...

The mixing of voltage and current...

Let's start with a transmission line, closed on one end;
open on the other.  There are signals inside this transmission
line, propagating back and forth with nearly no loss.

Which end do I use to measure the current?

The closed end.  I need a conductor to measure what is flowing
through it.

Which end do I use to measure the voltage?

The open end.  I cannot take a reading for the difference in
potential with a shunt there.

So now we have some terminology.  Our grenade coil is a
transmission line that is basically open on one end; shorted on
the other.  The shorted side is the current side; the open side is
the voltage side.

So what happens when a wave hits the voltage side?

It reverses direction and comes back same polarity reversed
in time, because there is no circuit there so it cannot flow
through.  All it can do is bounce back.

What happens when a wave hits the current side?

It crosses over and continues on its way without time reversal
and looks like a polarity flip.

So there we have a good chunk of this mystery solved IMHO.
We have two extremely valuable events within this simple hunk
of wire.  We have a voltage/current mixing device.  And we have
a time reversal device.  If we can't make free (as in beer) electrical
power with that, I'm sorry, there's no hope for us.   ;)

I knew you could do it... break the nut.
You only need people like me who just do something w/o thinking

Offline Dog-One

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2023, 11:45:02 PM »
Now the next thing we need to figure out is where are the
best places to inject our two input signals?

What is high voltage, low current?

How about low voltage, high current?

Doesn't matter does it.  Within the grenade coil it's just
a blob of moving energy.  It all depends on where we take
it out at, which will be on the open (voltage) end.  This end
isn't fully open though.  Our load is a partial shunt, so we
will have voltage and current there.

So now the trick.  The injection of two quite different sources
both in Voltage/Current ratio and frequencies.  What is a
Voltage/Current ratio?  Ohm's Law says that is a resistance.
Since we are dealing with AC signals with their respective
frequencies, we can call this an impedance.  What do we
know about transmission lines and impedance?  We know
if we want the energy to fully transfer, the impedances
have to match.  That means, the method we use determines
what the Voltage/Current ratio has to look like.  So at this
point we probably should assign impedance ratios to each
of our two input signals.  The output from our Tesla coil
is going to be a very high impedance and the output from
our push-pull will be much lower.

This is me just taking a wild stab at it, but I'm guessing
a capacitive coupling is the preferred method for high
impedance and magnetic coupling is probably more
suitable for low impedance.  We cannot directly connect
to this transmission line because neither of these two
input sources are going to have the same impedance
as our load, which is what sets the impedance for the
grenade coil.  Yes, the grenade coil's impedance has to
match the load, else any energy in there cannot be
extracted without loss.

Impedance works in general terms, but when we get
to the aligning the waves, overlaying them with their
respective frequencies, then I think we have to go back
to thinking resistance, voltage/current ratio.  Because
at that point when we examine instantaneous behavior,
we have to see differences in potential so we can predict
which way current will flow and what the ratio will do.
We will be looking for a gain function that forces energy
from the ground, into the grenade and out to our load.
I'd be willing to bet there is a voltage/current ratio between
the air and the ground that comes into play here.

Offline Dog-One

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2023, 11:56:18 PM »
Made a second vid after rewinding layer 6 from cw to ccw.
Which lowered the inductance from 80yH to 17uH.
Frequency increased from 1.78 to 2.3 Mhz approx.

https://youtu.be/uhxOdjuRgnc

During your sweep, I saw four or five points where you get a
nice clean spectrum with almost no harmonics or distortion.
Those are frequencies that are aligning within your grenade
coil exactly.

Where it is going to get interesting is when we bring in the
other input source and we start seeing some heterodyning.

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2023, 12:02:39 AM »
During your sweep, I saw four or five points where you get a
nice clean spectrum with almost no harmonics or distortion.
Those are frequencies that are aligning within your grenade
coil exactly.

Where it is going to get interesting is when we bring in the
other input source and we start seeing some heterodyning.

Ok, quit interesting.
So i will look back tomorrow to see what frequency that is.

Yes, lets see if we can brimg it a step further
If you have any suggestions, let me know

Offline apecore

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2023, 12:38:46 AM »

Where it is going to get interesting is when we bring in the
other input source and we start seeing some heterodyning.

So for my understanding, second source comes from inductor? Right
So we should puls inductor coil at same time as we do now with antenna?

I guess we take the frequency as you noticed, same time at antenna with determind grenade frequency?

Offline Dog-One

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Re: TopRuslan
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2023, 03:22:20 AM »
So for my understanding, second source comes from inductor? Right
So we should puls inductor coil at same time as we do now with antenna?

I guess we take the frequency as you noticed, same time at antenna with determind grenade frequency?

For now, just inductor alone.  I'll be quite curious if the
frequency sweeps hit the same points or not.  You'll have
to let us know how you hooked things up to make it work
since the inductor really isn't designed for high frequency
input.  If you can't get any good signal going, don't be
alarmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW1Qn0DQwJM