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Author Topic: The Secrets Of Back EMF  (Read 8877 times)

kolbacict

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2023, 08:09:15 AM »


 having a relatively secure place to live, packed with electricity, engine power, lights, heating, fridge, grill, water, computer and in the vicinity of food would make survival a breeze compared to leaving with a backpack and no skills, and I know that will be the last resort for many of those who today just dream at a political solution.

onepower

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2023, 05:26:23 PM »
fxeconomist
Quote
As long as you do not, even seemingly, violate the laws of thermodynamics, you cannot get to overunity. You just marginally improve the efficiency towards 100%.

I always found this kind of talk really strange...

Suppose we produce an electric field which moves an electron through a vacuum tube, how does this relate to thermodynamics?.

In fact it has nothing to do with "heat" as a measure of molecular oscillations. Thus it has nothing to do with "thermodynamics" relating to the movement and conversion of heat.
"THERMODYNAMICS"--Physics that deals with the relationships and conversions between heat and other forms of energy.

So let's get our facts straight and what were talking about is "ELECTRODYNAMICS"
1)The study of moving electric charges and their interaction with magnetic and electric fields.
2)The phenomena associated with moving electric charges, and their interaction with electric and magnetic fields; the study of these phenomena.

I find the notion of thermodynamics completely absurd and it's like implying all the phenomena in the universe must relate to the laws we see in this piece of crap 100 year old steam engine leaking oil all over the place. It's misguided and to be honest kind of embarrassing that so many people still think on such a primitive and superficial level.

Of course, we know where this nonsense came from and it relates to primitive man's obsession with burning stuff. Primitive people always equate energy with heat/burning stuff where advanced people equate energy with the Primary Fields(Electric, Magnetic, Gravic) and particle theory.

So there is no need to worry about how something as primitive as thermodynamics applies to free energy devices because for the most part it doesn't apply. "Heat" is the lowest form of energy and what happens when people don't understand energy or know what there doing. For example, any fool can make a circuit produce heat but only an expert with advanced knowledge and understanding can make a circuit which doesn't produce any heat. Which may be why all the amateurs claim all there circuits and components get hot.

Here's a clue, 99% of the universe is a perfect vacuum at 2.73 Kelvin or -270.42 Celsius. Thus a complete lack of resistance and heat is the normal state of the universe and energy.

AC

fxeconomist

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2023, 06:03:36 PM »

I find the notion of thermodynamics completely absurd and it's like implying all the phenomena in the universe must relate to the laws we see in this piece of crap 100 year old steam engine leaking oil all over the place. It's misguided and to be honest kind of embarrassing that so many people still think on such a primitive and superficial level.


Oh, it's not me, it's Joe. I don't care too much about 100 year old crap. The experimental generator I wanna build is to rather test a more eclectic theory - the aether.
I want to see if I can actually add voltage to an amp source, akin to what Lindemann was saying - electricity as an unnatural combination of the warmth aether with the light aether.
Hope to move forward in April.

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2023, 06:05:28 PM »
It is not accurate imo to say that the study of electric fields and their interaction with charged particles has nothing to do with thermodynamics. In fact, thermodynamics is a branch of physics that deals with the relationships and conversions between heat and other forms of energy, including electrical energy. The movement of charged particles in response to electric fields can generate heat, and the conversion of electrical energy to heat is an important topic in thermodynamics.

And I also think that it is not accurate to describe thermodynamics as a "piece of crap 100 year old steam engine leaking oil all over the place." While thermodynamics has been around for over a century, it is still a relevant and important field of study in modern science and engineering. It has applications in a wide range of fields, from materials science to environmental science.

and, the idea that "heat" is the lowest form of energy and that only amateurs produce circuits that generate heat is also incorrect. Heat is a form of energy that is produced whenever energy is transferred from one system to another. It is a fundamental part of many natural processes and has important practical applications, such as in power generation and HVAC systems. Additionally, generating heat is often an unavoidable consequence of energy conversion processes, and minimizing heat generation is a challenge that requires advanced knowledge and understanding.

alan

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2023, 01:09:37 PM »
Oh, it's not me, it's Joe. I don't care too much about 100 year old crap. The experimental generator I wanna build is to rather test a more eclectic theory - the aether.
I want to see if I can actually add voltage to an amp source, akin to what Lindemann was saying - electricity as an unnatural combination of the warmth aether with the light aether.
Hope to move forward in April.
https://sound-au.com/articles/buck-xfmr.htm

alan

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2023, 01:20:11 PM »
Sorry, but I can't understand or follow that video. You start right off drawing something. Is it supposed to depict what's shown in my attachment? Second attachment is the page from where it was found, which is a university lesson. I think science/engineering has a thorough understanding of this without secrets.
bi
How to get the reversed potential to decay linearly during a timeconstant higher than the initial timeconstant, getting a higher volt-sec out than in?  ::)

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2023, 02:06:21 PM »
The back emf is just a small part of a larger system that incorporates multiple energy conversions and manipulations. We're not just relying on the back emf to generate more electricity than we put in. Instead, we're taking advantage of various energy systems that are normally lost as heat or other forms of energy, and converting them into usable electrical energy.

In this system, the back emf serves as a trigger to keep the feedback loop going between the two coils, but it's the combination of various systems and methods working together that allows us to extract more energy than we put in. This is not a violation of the laws of physics, but rather a process of converting and manipulating existing energy in a more efficient manner.

fxeconomist

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2023, 03:12:59 PM »
I'm not attracted to transformers.

Yes, transformer design is elegant. Doesn't make too much noise, doesn't need to change mechanical parts and so on.

But I think manipulating the back EMF in transformers is a challenge. I have taken a look at more efficient designs like opposing bucking coils and Thane Heins' bi-toroid transformer,

and those who built such devices didn't get to overunity, just made them very efficient. (Perhaps Bearden's MEG might be...)

The magic bad thing that happens is that the back EMF arising in the secondary as it is on load - perhaps better call it counter EMF to disambiguate from inductor back EMF - this counter EMF
is influencing the primary and increasing the power draw, without any wire connection.

This made me abandon transformer-like ideas, because you can't control something that happens wirelessly, and instead I open my eyes on the homopolar generator, which deals with the

back EMF in a crude manner - being statorless, the back EMF of the generator cannot oppose the rotation!

What else have I learned from overunity solutions I've been researching ? Inductor kickback. And what does the homopolar generator lacks ? Voltage. Exactly what the inductor kickback provides...

sm0ky2

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2023, 10:29:02 PM »
It is not accurate imo to say that the study of electric fields and their interaction with charged particles has nothing to do with thermodynamics. In fact, thermodynamics is a branch of physics that deals with the relationships and conversions between heat and other forms of energy, including electrical energy. The movement of charged particles in response to electric fields can generate heat, and the conversion of electrical energy to heat is an important topic in thermodynamics.

And I also think that it is not accurate to describe thermodynamics as a "piece of crap 100 year old steam engine leaking oil all over the place." While thermodynamics has been around for over a century, it is still a relevant and important field of study in modern science and engineering. It has applications in a wide range of fields, from materials science to environmental science.

and, the idea that "heat" is the lowest form of energy and that only amateurs produce circuits that generate heat is also incorrect. Heat is a form of energy that is produced whenever energy is transferred from one system to another. It is a fundamental part of many natural processes and has important practical applications, such as in power generation and HVAC systems. Additionally, generating heat is often an unavoidable consequence of energy conversion processes, and minimizing heat generation is a challenge that requires advanced knowledge and understanding.


i believe the criteria was "in a vacuum"
meaning there is nothing with the particle, for which heat to be converted from motion (i.e. friction, etc.)
that makes the experiment a purely electromagnetic interaction and will hold irrespective of temperature, within the limitations of the system.

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2023, 10:40:20 PM »
While I agree that in a vacuum and with no particles present, the interaction between electric fields and charged particles would not involve any thermodynamic processes, in my specific application, the presence of certain factors such as resistance and feedback loops between coils can impact the behavior of the system. Therefore, while the general statement may be correct, it is not entirely applicable to my specific application.

onepower

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2023, 02:37:17 AM »
smoky2
Quote
i believe the criteria was "in a vacuum"
meaning there is nothing with the particle, for which heat to be converted from motion (i.e. friction, etc.)
that makes the experiment a purely electromagnetic interaction and will hold irrespective of temperature, within the limitations of the system.

Indeed, superconductors do not generate heat either and repel all magnetic fields regardless of there polarity.
https://theconversation.com/how-do-superconductors-work-a-physicist-explains-what-it-means-to-have-resistance-free-electricity-202308

AC

tinman

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2023, 03:49:21 PM »
Quote
author=joellagace link=topic=19421.msg575455#msg575455 date=1679437897


Quote
When the current is turned off, the magnetic field collapses, which generates a voltage spike known as a back electromotive force

No. Back EMF is produced when the current starts to flow through the inductor. It is the self induced current produced while the magnetic field is building in the coil.

Quote
in the opposite direction of the original current

No again.
When the current flowing into the inductor is cut off, the magnetic field around the inductor will collapse around the coil, and produce a current flow in the same direction to the original current flow. This is inductive kickback or flyback, not Back EMF.
The current will continue to flow in the same direction. Only the voltage is inverted across the coil.

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By using this feedback loop, you are essentially increasing the efficiency of the system and allowing it to output more power than what was originally put in.

Would love to see this--with accurate measurements.

Quote
It's important to note that this doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics

Right after-->

Quote
allowing it to output more power than what was originally put in

joellagace

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2023, 04:52:35 PM »
LOL I hit a nerve again!  :o

fxeconomist

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2023, 05:31:30 PM »

When the current flowing into the inductor is cut off, the magnetic field around the inductor will collapse around the coil, and produce a current flow in the same direction to the original current flow.


So, let me see if I understood the difference straight.

Say we have a circuit. To the left, power source. The center has an up/down alligned inductor. The right side has the load.

Inductor responds with a kickback that is in the same direction. If current say, flows up (+) to down (-) in an inductor, kickback current will come out from the down side, continuing the initial direction, thru the load, to return to the up side.

Now we replace the inductor with a capacitor.

Capacitor discharge responds with current in the opposite direction. If current flew up (+) to down  (-), capacitor discharge would flow backwards, from the up side continuing that way towards the down thru the load.

Am I right ?

forest

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Re: The Secrets Of Back EMF
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2023, 05:55:44 PM »
Describe it in schematic to allow all understand